Autism & ADHD - A Father's Perspective
This is Inspired Mentor, 4 solution focused therapists born in 4 different decades who openly and honestly discuss their perspectives on the issues surrounding men's mental health. The things that stigma says, we don't talk about. And we're back with another episode of Inspired Men's Talk. And we're really excited today because we've got a really nice guest on, and his name is James Wand. He's the author of the book autism and ADHD, a father's perspective.
Chris Johannes:And I think you can all agree that that really speaks a lot to what we do with Inspired Men Talk. So, James, why don't you introduce yourself and let us know what you're about?
James Wand:Yeah. Hi. Yeah. I'm James. Basically, I'm a I've been a plumber for 22 years now.
James Wand:I've seen a lot in the trade. I'm a father of 3 children, 2 diagnosed as neurodivergent, and one, were 100% definitely going the same way as well. Over the years, looking back in hindsight, I've had I have had a lot of mental health issues. During the process, I don't think I actually realized it at the time because you just get on with it. You know, you just kind of roll your sleeves and get on with life.
James Wand:But I think looking back and I've I've gone through a whole journey, especially over the last year or so, where I've realized I have been struggling a lot. And I've never really found a way to get through it, how to get out of it. And it wasn't until I took my daughter to meet the, the lovely Nicole who just worked wonders at the time when we needed it the most. And that opened the door for me to go and see Nicole also. And she just she just taught me tricks that I could use going forward, and she's she just opened my eyes really for what I need to do.
James Wand:And it wasn't until I hit a really low point in my life last June with this process that we're going through with my children. It I kind of hit a place where I didn't like it, and I didn't realize until I was there how bad it was. I needed I I knew then I needed to take drastic action. I needed to do something for myself, for my family, for my friends, because I was coming I was becoming somebody who I didn't like anymore. And I wasn't in a strong enough place to be the father and to be the man I wanted to be for my family.
James Wand:And I hated it. Absolutely hated it. So that's when I kind of kind of write all my thoughts down on on my notes on my phone just to try and process what I was thinking, what I was feeling. Because because I'd hit I'd hit a point in my life where I felt like failure. I felt like I I was weak.
James Wand:I've become this person who my kids needed me to be the strong one, to be there, to provide, but I was slipping. I was slipping further and further down this hole, but there didn't seem anybody to grab me. And and I just felt like, where the hell am I going with this? And and it wasn't until I was on a journey home one night from work, and I was listening to the podcast about banter, and it and it was the same thing that day. It was just banter from customers about being on the phone, taking too long on the lunch break.
James Wand:Just they were just having a try and have a laugh, and this is how they communicated to people because it's and normally on a good day, I can bounce back. But I found myself, when I was in such a dark hole, this banter, it it pushed me too far. And then it wasn't until I was on the drive home, and I saw this HGV lorry come in, and for some my mind I I was gone. It got me it pulled me aside, and I everybody and everything around me was telling me in that moment, you're a failure. This is your fault.
James Wand:And and and as for a split second, I thought I could I could do this. I could really go there, but I didn't. And I went home, I had a lovely cuddle on the sun. He told me he loved me, which was amazing. It it really chained my perspective, but also gave me a real, say in the the book, a real big punch of guilt, but it's what I needed.
James Wand:It's what I needed as a dad to say I was needed and I and I was strong, and it and it wasn't until I started writing my book that that's become my outlet. And I've always struggled for to find that outlet. But until once I started writing the words down, they all started to make sense why I was feeling it. And it's not until you start to look at the overall the overall journey where you started and where you end up, you then realize that it's a it's been a commoon what's the word? A commutative over the years, and it's got me to a point where I've had to make change.
James Wand:And Yeah. Fortunately for me and my family, I've reached it, and I'm acting on it. So that's pretty much me.
Gary Johannes:That that's brilliant. I've got about 50 questions, but I'm not gonna ask them all because I get in trouble for hogging the microphone. But I've got one question. You've mentioned your family. You've mentioned your children and that.
Gary Johannes:But you're a married man as well, aren't you? You you're not a single dad.
James Wand:No. I'm a married happily married man. I've been married now for 18 years.
Gary Johannes:Yeah. And how's that so when you took your family, it's that whole family network What is affected by how you're feeling?
James Wand:Yeah. Massively. Massively. Because my my wife bless her. She's she's incredible.
James Wand:And if it wasn't for my wife, I don't know where I'd be in my own headspace because she's put up with me going home and and all she often says when I go home, I'm there in body, but my mind's in a different place. And she said and she said, it's fair enough you've been here, but allow yourself to be here. But when you're in that moment, you can't relax, you head your thoughts are racing. And if it wasn't for her standing by me and reminding me that I'm a good dad and a good person, I I don't know where where would it be. Definitely.
Gary Johannes:There's loads of other heads nodding. There's 5 of us on here, and everybody's like, you can see the eagerness. So I'm gonna have other people talk.
Chris Johannes:I mean, I think it's fair to say that you you're talking from a point of view where I think we've all been there in some way. We've all and what I would take quite a lot from what you were saying, James, is you you take a lot of responsibility as the man of the house, if you like, for lack of a better phrase. You you take a lot of burden on yourself, you know? And I think we're we're all guilty of that. You know?
Chris Johannes:I certainly, am still and have been. You know? You you feel that need to be the strong be the strength and be the provider and all of those things. One interesting thing you said when you felt like you're slipping down that hole, you felt like there was nobody to grab you. You didn't say I felt like I couldn't get out.
Chris Johannes:So you recognised that you needed help. You needed somebody else there. And I thought that was really, really interesting. You talk really fondly of your wife and, and your children. So, you know, I can see your motivation coming through really strongly.
James Wand:Yeah. No. I I am, and I do I am very much that traditional man in the respect that I was brought up where you go out and you do your job, and you have a tough upper lip. Now I was brought up to be very very respectful, very strict, in which which I'm I'm pleased for because it's mainly who I am, but I also was brought up to just get on with it. And you you definitely it wasn't until I went on these parenting courses through trying to support my family and support my children with their the issues that are going on.
James Wand:And I didn't wanna do them initially, but what it did was it got it made me realize that I could either follow the parenting route that I was brought up with or I could go against that to a certain extent to try and be more supportive and more better because you didn't really I've grown you don't really talk about mental health. You didn't talk about how you're feeling inside that box because you just get on with it. You know? You're the bloke. Just get on with it.
James Wand:So that's the way I've always lived. And, obviously, being in a a being a plumber and in the building trade, even more so, you just you don't talk weakness. Because the moment you talk weakness, they're on you like vultures. And you can never never get away with it. Because once you're in the trade and for me, someone from Spalding is a, a small town.
James Wand:Everybody seems to know everybody. So you say one thing in the building, merchants are on-site. You go to the next site, and it's there. So you just don't say anything because it's easier that way. You you you you're quiet and you're out the loop.
Chris Johannes:Do you think that's true? Or do you think that's something we put on ourselves? Do you think we we anticipate that without proof? Do you think there's I mean, I I agree. I think there is an element of truth there.
Chris Johannes:But do you think in that is absolutely true. That there's I know I used to be in trades as well. I used to be a landscaper. So I can't I know what you're saying, but do you think that that is fact that they won't be able to let that go? That you're if you're seen as weak, that's it.
Chris Johannes:Your reputation is ruined. Do you think that's true?
James Wand:I don't know if I believe it's 100% true. No. But I think with my my mindset and the way I am and such an overthinker, that my mind takes me there. Mhmm. So I I end up in this place where I think everyone's gonna just get at me, but it it's it's funny that even now now I'm I can go into a merchant now.
James Wand:I could go up today when we finish this podcast and walk in, and I'll be the only man openly talking about I've just filmed podcast. I'm talking about mental health. Everybody else just looks nervous, and and everyone's they don't know what to say to me. And they're just like, oh, that's nice, Jim. And, oh, you just wanna man up, pull your sleeves up, and get on it.
James Wand:Because the that's the only way they can react to ones, are you? Yeah. Yeah. And I I am literally the only one in now in these merchants. I don't talk in I don't hear anybody else talking mental health.
James Wand:And if they do, they're taking the mic or on a little jive. And I'd like to talk to Gary last week that it is it is you can I can now tell the people that find it the hardest to talk mental health? Yeah. Because they'll just have a quick jibe at you or quick dig to try and get onto another subject quick. And it's funny now how you you start to perceive men, and and then you can read people a little bit easier.
James Wand:It's it's funny.
Chris Johannes:Yeah. Absolutely. James, you
Benn Baker-Pollard:talk about, you know, being the man and being the pillar of strength, for your family. And then in your you mentioned about how actually being open and honest with your emotions has been a huge benefit for your children. What difference have you seen in that in your family environment now you've started talking about and displaying your emotions with them?
James Wand:I think what I've seen is, with our oldest, Mia, she's 13. Obviously, we were still in the learning stage, and any new parent, obviously, with your first child, it's all all learning. It's all new. We make massive mistakes. We learn by them.
James Wand:But I've got a very close relationship with my son, George, through learning. And what I'm finding is that he's he's more open to me now. And I think because he's seen me at my low points, and he's seen me openly talk about my mental health. He can now open up and say, like I mentioned in the book, he he turned around one night and he just said, well, I know why you feel like that, dad, because our needs are now your needs. And he's starting to realize that there's a there's an overall thing here that we all share the burden we've got in house.
James Wand:But whilst I was trying to keep it pressed down low and and be the man and put up this barrier, they weren't benefiting. They weren't opening up to me because they were trying to be me as their role model, the big strong man, and that George said to me not long ago, he said, but you never cry, dad. I said, mate, I I really do. I said, but you just don't see it because you don't see me in my van when I go home from work, and I just sit and cry in the van. You don't see that bit, mate, because I tried to come in all upbeat knowing that you've had a tough a tough day.
James Wand:So
Benn Baker-Pollard:I mean, that's quite profound, isn't it? Our needs and your needs coming from from your own child.
James Wand:That's massive. A 9 year old as well. It was massive. I just I sat there, and I just thought I thought, where did that come from? But I love it because I know he he's so in touch with his emotions as George is.
James Wand:Like, I mean, he can go and listen to a song, and he'll start crying because he'll listen to the the lyrics, and he and I like that because I know he's gonna grow up talking emotion. He's gonna be he's gonna he's growing up in a better way than I probably did and connecting with it. So it's good. I really like it.
Peter Ely:In in the book, James, you talk about this Coke bottle effect for how it was with Mia and and her emotions, and I think it's a really lovely analogy.
Benn Baker-Pollard:I
Peter Ely:was wondering if for anyone who hasn't yet read the book would you explain a) what it is and b) where you got it, where you found that kind of analogy from? Because I think it's a really nice one.
James Wand:Yeah. Well, the Coke bottle effect is quite a, common analogy in parents for neurodivergent children, and it's on all the Facebook forums and all that kinds of stuff. And you get to sort it when you get early help involved through schools and stuff. But, basically, the Coke bottle effect was described as if you if you imagine a child or any human being now, because I know oh, I have the Coke bottle effect. So I and this is the thing.
James Wand:Through learning stuff to teach my children, all I've done is taught myself, and it's quite I wouldn't have reached this point if I hadn't had to teach my children. So it's been quite an eye opener. But the Coke bottle effect is you you have a a fresh bottle of Coke or Fenny Fizzy drink, and you every time you encounter some level of stress throughout the day, whether you've you've lost your keys, or the job doesn't turn up or you go out and someone puts you up in a car or every time you encounter stress, you shake your bottle. And, of course, all of us throughout the day, we keep the lid on because you don't want to show people how stressed you are. So like my children, and I've learned that they mask.
James Wand:And, oh, and I think we all mask to a certain level, and we go through day with this mask on pretending to be someone that we're not just to get through the day. And then every time you encounter it, you you keep shaking, you keep shaking. And then when you walk through your your front door and you're in your safe space, your home, if you try taking that lid off and imagine the explosion, that's what we were witnessing every day with our children through being in the school environment. So
Peter Ely:And when you think about it now for yourself, if there's anyone else kinda going through that in in in their lives, do you have any tips for releasing that bottle before you get home?
James Wand:Yeah. Well, it's funny. So I was talking to Nicole on Saturday, and we both share the same thought process. I'm a lot happier when I've been working a a good 20 minutes from home because I can crank my music up, and I can sing, and I can scream, and I can just let it all out. And for me, music is a massive release.
James Wand:Now I love music, and I love singing in the van. And being a tradesman, I've been driving a Miami, Maryland van. It's a win win. I'll I'll just love it. And if anyone can see me at traffic lights, god knows what I look like.
Peter Ely:Just from a personal perspective, what's your go to song? Mine was always Angels, but what's your go to song?
James Wand:Oh, yes. See, that was always my karaoke classic, Angels. I love I love bouncing out Guns N' Roses. Oh, nice. Yeah.
James Wand:I love getting that on because it's just got a bait that carries it's an it's an uplift. Angels in the early days was but I find I find slow songs now too moving, and they and I need upbeat. I need something that's really heavy, and Guns N' Roses is heavy enough.
Gary Johannes:Yeah. As you get older, you'll move on to ACDC.
James Wand:Oh, now was yeah. That started slipping in. That's yeah. Definitely.
Peter Ely:I also read since we've got, since we've got a thing out of Gap, I'll jump in. I also I also really liked the whole thing about the spoons and replenishing the spoons and you were when you talked about that with with me, I renewed. We we have a thing of, like, we call it scaling and we do the 1 to 10, but, you know, the spoons was a really nice analogy and it kinda stuck with me as well. Yeah. What how would you help her to replenish the spoon, and how do you replenish your spoons?
James Wand:Well, with the kids, we were just very child led. So we sat down one day and said, you know, let's think of it as spoon. And we learned this on a, a course called the Early Bird Course, and it was run by the National Autistic Society. And we just sat down one day, and it was child led, and we just said, look, you tell us with this analogy, and she loved it. She jumped on it.
James Wand:It was the first thing that really worked with explaining emotions because kids really struggle to what they're thinking, and it did work. And she'd soon learned that, you know, technology is a big thing for the kids. Having that time to go off in the technology or the barbies or or the reading. And then we even brought her a little spoon for when she used to go to school. A family friend brought a little silver spoon so she could tie it to a bag just so when she was at school.
James Wand:She needed the spoon. She touched the spoon, and it gave her that home feeling, home connection. But they they're starting to learn now that they can just take themselves away for 5 minutes, 10 minutes away from family and friends and replenish. I I found myself last night, so I suppose, filling my spoons and I've I've had such a bad day and because I had so much work to do. And I'm not gonna lie, I was getting worked up about today.
James Wand:It's it's completely new for me. I'm ever so nervous, got nervous to me. But we had family over, and all I needed to do was my quotes, my work. I needed to get my work done, but people were in and out of my house. Then the dog started barking, and I ended up on the couch with my head hood up over my head screaming because I'd reached my limit.
Gary Johannes:So your coke bottle was full and filthy?
James Wand:Yeah. Yeah. Must have been. But what I what I hadn't done was do my I've done my own learning and released it throughout the day. Like, I'd kept push push push.
James Wand:And and last night, I lost it with George, and I just said I need 5 minutes. And I always tell him I need 5 minutes because he needs to know that I'm taking myself away because I need that respite. 5 minutes on the guitar, playing a few chords, went back in, I was a different bloke because I've given all myself that step away. And you always I find now I've struggled to remember, but I always need to just take that step to one side, take myself away from that head on collision. And then I go back a different person every time.
Gary Johannes:I think that's I'm sorry. Go on. Go on.
Chris Johannes:I think it's really interesting that you talk about, talking with George. You you, you know, you you sort of lost lost it with George a little bit, but you know you needed 5 minutes. You recognize that. And I know as a father of young kids myself, the guilt that comes with when you're stressed and you, again, for lack of a better phrase, you take it out on the kids a little bit or you lose your temper with the kids. The guilt that comes with that is is unbearable.
Chris Johannes:It's awful, you know, and I've been guilty of this plenty of times where you really torture yourself over that. So I think it's really, really good that you've kind of recognized, and you've got this communication with your, your kids that you can say, I need 5 minutes, take yourself away, do what you need to do, and then come back into the situation.' I think, I think a lot of people can, can learn that they shouldn't be guilty for that. You know? That's perfectly, like, the right thing to do in that moment. I mean, you must have suffered from that yourself where you felt so guilty just for the way you've reacted to something later.
James Wand:I'll openly admit, most days, I carry guilt. Because running a business, granted I've taken my foot off the pedal a lot in the last 12 months, but running a business and being the father of 3 and having a wife, I do lose my cool quite quick. I'm I'm quite a heart headed person. And the amount of times I've driven to work feeling so filled with guilt from the way that I've mishandled the situation, how I've snapped. But I always go back that night, and I'll always say, I'm sorry.
James Wand:I'm sorry for the way I behaved. It was wrong. I should have done this. I should have done that. And I try to I try to teach them, but they also need to know that you can make mistakes.
James Wand:It's it's just how you rectify it. It's how you talk to them afterwards and how to put things right. So
Gary Johannes:Is that a quite fine line? Because I'm sitting here listening. I'm going, but people who are saying sorry should learn from them so they don't have to do it again. But it's a very difficult space because you, you know, you keep getting, you know, pressure and stress build up on you. You lose your temper a little bit and and and are nasty or naughty or or just shut down whatever your thing is, and then you apologize for it, but then you do the same.
Gary Johannes:So are you saying right now that you're actually going, okay. I know what I did. How can I not do that in the future? Is that some part of what you're doing now? Yeah.
Gary Johannes:Well, what yeah. Well Saying sorry is only part of
James Wand:the fix,
Gary Johannes:isn't it?
James Wand:I I'm always I'm always trying to I'm always self analyzing myself. And, yeah, every time I say sorry, I'm always I'm always thinking about how can I be how can I be better, and how can I approach that that that situation different next time?
Gary Johannes:So it's not just a fob off of apologize, get over it, move on, which people who are learning use, don't they?
James Wand:Yeah. Well, I'm always the thing is I'm I'm I'm always wanting to be a better dad. Mhmm. And and I'm I'm desperate for all 3 of my kids to grow up more open than I ever have been. And and and you we've been taught on these courses.
James Wand:The only way you can teach them is by role modeling it. You can't just tell them it.
Gary Johannes:It. It's it's interesting. We had a guest on, when we first started doing this, and it was, a guest who runs a charity called Lads Needs Dads. So it's for children who don't have dads, And and it's why they don't necessarily grow up as well because there's a difference in in their opinion between a mother and a father. And she she one of the things she because I've always thought well modern, well modern, well modern well modeling is so important.
Gary Johannes:And she said it's not the role modeling. It's the mentoring. It's not you going, do this. It's like showing them stuff, teaching them stuff, explaining why those things are happening.
James Wand:Yeah.
Gary Johannes:And that's what I'm hearing you do. You're you're using the term malmodeling the same as I would. But, actually, there's so much more to just be like me because we, you know, we can role model people, but not know much about them. We don't learn from them. We just be like them.
Gary Johannes:You're teaching your children as well and teaching one of the things I wanted to ask you, because you said when you go into the builder's merchants, you're the only one who talks about mental health. People give banter. People ignore it. The construction industry has the highest suicide rate of all industries. So using that analogy of Coke bottle, they might be bantering.
Gary Johannes:They might not be talking about it, but they're fizzing away until they pop. Mhmm. And then they do something drastic because they've not had those releases, which you're now massively open to looking for continual releases. How would you, you know, change it? You know, is there anything you can see in an industry point of view where that can be put a dent in it at least?
James Wand:Well, honestly, I don't know. I don't know what the answer is. All I know is just so everyone everyone's trying to be better than everybody else on a day to day basis. And
Gary Johannes:So it's competitive?
James Wand:Everyone's competitive. I I know looking back over the years when I've been on-site, like, I've always considered myself quite a decent plumber. I'm not the best plumber. I like you know? But I'm a decent plumber.
James Wand:I'm conscientious. Of a product about my work. I like it to be right. But because I put that into my trade on-site, they they they I've everyone pick pick your weakness and then go on it and and tell you, oh, yeah. That's rubbish.
James Wand:Yeah. Yeah. If I wouldn't be doing it like this. But looking back now, the people that were saying this to me are still in the same job. They're still doing the same thing.
James Wand:And I look at them as different people now and think, actually, I think you were struggling more than I was at the time. But because I because I had it quite together. That's what I was they put in there So they were
Gary Johannes:they were projecting their their vulnerability onto you?
James Wand:No. I think so now. Theirs. And I wouldn't have seen that at the time. At the time, I was going home.
James Wand:And when I when I used to work for somebody, I remember I hit, I'd say I I was depressed. And and I was going home from work depressed because it's relentless every day the the banter that you get. And when you're not in the right headspace, it's not banter. It's it starts taking an effect, and you start you start focusing on what people have said to you throughout the day, throughout the week, and it it layers up. And the problem is once it starts layering up, you you're trapped, and it wasn't until my wife just said, you just need to get out and do something about it or or or change what's happening.
James Wand:And that's when I went and got that's when I became a lecturer at Boston College for 4 days.
Gary Johannes:For 4 days? 4 days.
James Wand:Yeah. Honestly. Because I made it out. I was desperate. I was I was going home every day so depressed, and my wife got a sort of advertisement for a college lecturer.
James Wand:And she said, just do it. I said, no. I can't be a lecturer. So I did it, and they said it was one of the best interviews that I've had for a long time. Excellent.
James Wand:And I was like, this is amazing. Got the job, stood in front of this class, and I was like, this isn't me. What the hell have I just what have I done? But that was desperation to get out of an environment that was killing me. It it was awful.
James Wand:But the problem is, looking back now, what had happened was I'd lost my granddad, and my relationship with my granddad was so close. And I still I still I lost him 2013 and I still think about him every day. I miss him a bit.
Gary Johannes:Yeah.
James Wand:Now he was my role model. He was he was my guy, so I lost him and then everything that work was compounding, and And I never really spoke about the loss of my granddad. And looking, it's only now all through this whole writing journey and addressing who I am, I can look back and say, we had George in the in the 2014. I lost my granddad in the year before. That time of my life, looking back, I think I was in quite a dark time, and I didn't realize.
James Wand:But most of it was with grief through losing my granddad. And then and then the jobs at work and all this kind of stuff and people not pulling away, We were then entering a process of not understanding what was going on with our daughter. My mind was so full, and and it and then I lashed out at everybody at work one day. And these were guys I've known for years, since I was a teenager, and they were quite good mates. And I lost it and told them what I thought about them and told them about how childish they were, that they needed to grow up, they needed to and they and they all kind of went, woah, Jim.
James Wand:Hang on a minute. Why are you being so horrible? But I'd reached my limit, and they were they were in the fire and light. And they didn't deserve it, but I wasn't addressing my mental health, and they took the brunt of it.
Gary Johannes:Ben, you're nodding loads, and Ben Ben comes from a completely different spectrum, but some similar by the sounds of it.
Benn Baker-Pollard:One thing that struck me, James, is the gaslighting section in your book and about how hard your journey has been to get answers, to get solutions, both trying to find those answers online in those groups yourself, but equally being dismissed by professionals or hinted at that you are the problem, you are the cause of all your issues, and that your parenting style is to blame, or you're not being willing to adjust and change. And that, to me, just sounds a horrific minefield, and it there's gonna be parents out there who are just beginning that journey like you did. What would you say if you could give them any piece of advice to cope with that and to keep their determination alive to keep pushing forward? Is there anything you could recommend or suggest that you found work for you?
James Wand:Number 1 is trust you're a good parent, and don't don't be fobbed off and reach out for the people that are living this journey. We left it too late. We were in the mindset of, oh, we just need to change. We need to be better. We need to do this.
James Wand:We need to do that. And we were fighting to keep in touch with parents of the neurotypical people and the lifestyle that we'd bought we'd been brought up with. And it wasn't until we accepted, I think, who who we were as individuals and as a family and said, hey, do you know what? It's alright to be different. Why are we fighting to keep in with a niche of people that don't understand it, and are never gonna understand it, and they're never gonna listen?
James Wand:And that there's such a big feeling that comes along with validation. And when you're validated and your thoughts are validated about what you're doing, it's massive. But now I trust myself as a dad, and Emily trusts herself as a mom. And when the professionals dismiss you, these are professionals that you go to for the support, and you don't get it. And it just once or twice, you can kinda go, oh, it's not an issue, but it's continuous.
James Wand:It's week in. It's week out. It's meeting after meeting. And he's a professional that I used to look up to with respect that they knew better than me. Whereas now, they don't.
James Wand:And I think I'm now confident enough to say that I know my child than anybody else on this planet.
Chris Johannes:Absolutely.
James Wand:And it's trust your gut and follow your gut, and don't be dismissed.
Chris Johannes:I think that's quite a big message for a lot of people. You know, I think every single parent on the planet has doubted themselves many, many times. So I think that's a really important message. One thing I did wanna ask is you said about distancing yourself from those people who are just never gonna get it, never gonna understand, always gonna question what you're doing. How did you find that with, extended family?
Chris Johannes:You know, cause I know that there's a lot of people in the position you're in that there's it's a continuous battle with people that are close to them as well as just friends and family, you know. The the extended family quite often are in that category as well, where they just won't get it. Did you find that a struggle?
James Wand:So personally, I think for myself and my wife, that was the that was the bit that hurt the most. Because friends and distant family, you can kind of understand it. But I think you feel that your family, your immediate family, should always have your back, and they should always trust you and trust your judgment. But the problem we had was no one else in our family or anybody we knew had been diagnosed with any kind of neurodiversity, so we didn't know anybody with autism or ADHD or anything. So we were the first ones.
James Wand:And, fortunately, Emily being a teacher, she she had the experience. So we we're looking at different here. We're looking at different, and it took me and I've I've mentioned in the book, it took me a long time to accept as a dad my kids are different. And Can
Gary Johannes:I just ask can I just stop there? Being a dad,
James Wand:Yeah.
Gary Johannes:As you can see, I'm one of the older oldest one in the room. So that means I'm not there's something wrong with me, or there's something wrong with how I produce children. Was that part of it? You know, I go back and,
James Wand:you
Gary Johannes:know, we go back and if I had a gay child, what's wrong with me? That my child is gay. My child is deformed. My in in old fashioned money, it was I'm weak because I produced a child who's not fit for purpose. And I know that's not true now, and it's certainly not where I come from now.
Gary Johannes:But my generation and older, that's how we looked at things. Was that ever there for you? That part of common term to terms with it?
James Wand:Yeah. And I think the problem is that we had close family say to us, well, you just need to do this. You need to be tougher. And and I think then it was it was the it was being told but insinuating that we needed to be the better parents. I don't think I ever had the thought of saying that it was my fault.
James Wand:It was just I was doing things wrong. And and then when it's when that's backed up by the professionals and the mental health professionals that are meant to be giving you the advice to help you, all they're really doing is just reinforcing everybody else's message that you're parenting wrong. And and then you start questioning, well, actually, is it neurodiversity, or is it or is it our fault? And every night becomes self analysis. And and me and Emily talking about what we've done and what we could have changed, how we could be better, constant.
James Wand:But it is a self doubt. And and as a dad, you perceive your children to fit into a certain role and to go to the clubs and to have lots of friends and to love going to busy places and to discos and to cinemas. And in the early days, I thought I'd accepted. It but it's literally only this last 12 months in writing a book that I can now look back and say, it's absolutely fine to be who you are. And we've just accepted our new life.
James Wand:And I think our mental health through acceptance has improved.
Chris Johannes:Yeah. I just wanna tickle a little bit more on the the the sort of battles you had to face with other people? I mean, do you find that everybody's always an expert as well? Whenever, you know, not the experts, but the people that you, you know, you talk to, everybody, the builders merchant you might talk to, everybody, I think, and your friend and family.
James Wand:Well, everyone yeah.
Chris Johannes:Everybody knows better.
James Wand:Everyone that's older than you and who's got kids and who's been through this journey, they know better than you. And that includes my family. I've I've told them myself. It includes my our siblings, our parents, and then and as and I mentioned in the book, it wasn't until we actually moved in with my father-in-law and my sister-in-law when we had some building work done. And it wasn't until you actually see behind closed doors about the effects that they can have on people, and and you can see them in their raw state.
James Wand:They didn't see it. But you do that like, when you go to professionals at school, like, that's a different chapter on its on its own. When you're dealing with these professionals that, again, like I say, you looked up to at the beginning. And when they when they were telling us to force our child into school, that there's nothing wrong and and you just go, yeah, sorry. Yeah.
James Wand:That yeah. And you keep forcing them and forcing them and forcing them. And like with Mia, it wasn't until she had the burnout that you realized that actually we've been following the professional's advice, but all it did was cause such ill health mentally for our daughter. And I don't think she's ever really truly recovered from it.
Gary Johannes:It's it's really funny, and I'm keep jumping in here. But in old fashioned money, like, I'm a therapist. I I work with Nicole, who you've worked with. We work exactly the same. All of us are.
Gary Johannes:So we this isn't our opinion, but going back decades to when I was a young man and a 13 year old can't have burnout. That was it's like, don't tell them to get up and do it. Yeah. So just recognizing that your daughter had enough. That's so different to what probably the way I was brought up, certainly, because a 13 year old can't.
Gary Johannes:They're just being difficult.
James Wand:Mhmm.
Gary Johannes:So that's huge.
James Wand:Yeah. And a lot of people told us at the time, oh, she's just acting out. She's just she's just trying to get away with it. And these were quite close people to us. They're just saying, are you sure she's not just trying to pull the wool over your eyes?
James Wand:And it's not until you can you've witnessed it firsthand in your this mental health in your child that they're lost. And and they're lost, and you can actually see through them. And and they just vanish from you, and it's it's a very, very hard place to be. But that that came from following the professional's advice and not pushing your own experience, and it just pushed her further and further away. So it's a dark place to be, but it's a lesson that we've now learned that with our older children, as soon as a professional says, Well, we think you should be doing this, We we we straight out go, no, we're not.
Benn Baker-Pollard:Thinking about your own mental health, James, because that's obviously the other side of this journey is you you went for therapy. How difficult was it to reach in that decision to try therapy? And I know you talked about CBT wasn't what you needed. What what was the difference between the therapy options that were available? And and, obviously, hypnotherapy was one that worked for you.
Benn Baker-Pollard:Why did it work?
James Wand:It worked because I had seen what it done to Mia, and I've met Nicole. And I think it helped me personally because I already had a connection with Nicole, and there was a trust there. I've I've never been that kind of person to pick up the phone and go help. It just didn't it just don't do it. But I again, I feel grateful because I I was there at the beginning with Mia, and I got to meet Nicole, and I and I got to meet how Nicole did her job.
James Wand:And I just liked it. And and it just I felt at ease, and I felt comfortable. And and I like talking to her on Saturday. I like the fact that you don't dwell on what's happened. And and I must I just like the simplicity of how she dealt with me, and I felt very, very comfortable in her presence.
James Wand:And I don't know. I just felt easy, that easy doing it. And it took don't get me wrong. I still slip out of it, but I still I've I've listened to the audio nearly every single night since since I started writing the book. So this is the thing.
James Wand:I I let what I've learned slowly fade away. Yeah. And it's not until I start hit hitting a a low point again and struggling, I think, oh, I've gotta start writing a positive book. And I start writing a book and start listening to the audio again, and it's now got to the point where I could fall start falling asleep and it goes, you ain't got your audio on. So I have to get I'll quickly get my phone because I now need to know I have to have the audio.
James Wand:I have to have it in their sleep. So my children still need it as well. No. It was a good thing meeting Nicole. I've I've got I really like Nicole, Ria, and she she helps us a lot.
James Wand:Bless her.
Chris Johannes:That's fantastic. So we are coming up to about 40 minutes. So, I mean, we could keep talking to you for ages, I'm sure. One thing I we I kinda wanna step lit a little bit backwards. Talking again about those builders and merchants that you go into, and you're the only one standing there talking about mental health.
Chris Johannes:And I think Gary asked you a question of, well, how how can we make a dent in that atmosphere? I think you're doing that. I think you're already doing that. Yes. They might give you a few digs, and they might go a bit sheepish when you start talking about your experiences.
Chris Johannes:But a couple of them might be sitting there quite quietly going, this guy can talk about it. This guy you know, it might not happen in that moment, but they might go away. And that will sit play on them, and they'll process through. And that might make that little bit of difference, and they might just go they might not talk to you about it, or they might not talk to their mates about it, but they might go home and talk to their partners or their family because they've seen you setting that example, just like you set your example for your children fantastically. I think you're setting an example for all those other tradies, and I think I think you should be proud of that.
James Wand:Yeah. And I am. And one massive, profound thing that's happening since I have started talking about it. I've had 3 or 4 men say to me 1 on 1 of of of of being through a tough time. And that's the thing.
James Wand:No one's ever opened up to me. No one. In the 22 years I've been working on-site and in people's houses, no one's ever spoke. But for the last especially 2, 3 years since we've been hitting a real low, I've become more open more open, and and I speak to all of my customers. I think they're sick to death of my story now because I just tell everybody.
James Wand:Everywhere I go, plumbing merchants, customers, friends, everything, I'm always talking about my kids, my own mental health. And, like, I'm having a bad day. I don't go in there, and they think, oh, you're alright. I don't go, yeah. I go, no, actually.
James Wand:You know what? I've had a really crappy day. And sometimes they look open to it, but I've had I had a I had a tradie who I work with quite regularly. He's he opened up to me because I was, like, telling him about my plan to write the book to help other parents and sort my own mental health out. And he out of nowhere now he's Jack the lad.
James Wand:Everybody loves him. The customers love him. He's always quick, quirky. He's he's such a lovely bloke. But this one day, he sat with me outside my van, and he just opened up.
James Wand:And I'm not gonna, for 1 minute, delve into what he said, but
Gary Johannes:Of course not.
James Wand:It was hard. It was hard to listen, and I was I was just like, Christ, mate. Where where did that come from? And he said, I trust you. You opened up.
Gary Johannes:Yeah. And And I and I think that is the biggest issue in because I I no. Where I'm sitting now was constructed and everybody, the guy who come into the blinds, the guy who did the plastering, the guy who put the stud boarder, Every single one of them told me. When they said, oh, what are you doing there? Oh, it's a mental health center.
Gary Johannes:Bullshit. It will come out. And you know they never spoke to anyone else. So as soon as they know you're on their team as it were Yeah. Men talk.
Gary Johannes:It's just that we're so terrified that you're gonna use it against them as a tradesman. So you don't. But as soon as you realize that one's safe, I think there's loads of stuff going on, and they're just scared to share.
James Wand:Yeah. And I and I was scared. I was scared. But I think now I'm growing that outside skin to say, actually, do you know what? There isn't anything to be scared of because it's it's it's the damn sight worst to keep it bottled up.
James Wand:Because I've even had a customer, like like, just randomly. I was just talking to him about about my kid and what we've been through. And again, he'd he'd been in a very, very dark place, but he opened up to me. And I just said, I can't really believe you're telling me this. I'm like, well, I'm only I'm only doing fixing your taps.
James Wand:He said, I just like you. He said and he said, you've just told me. You've just put your heart on your sleeve. You told me what's what's going on in your head. I feel like I can relate to you.
James Wand:And and that's the thing of what I found is when you find someone you can relate to, and and you can just take that 5 minutes to stop your brain from wearing and just open up, Everybody starts opening up back to you.
Gary Johannes:They'd asked you why why that therapy worked for you because you tried different things. You've been to parenting sessions. You've tried CBT. And then you started work with Nicole, and Nicole's a solution focused hypnotherapist.
James Wand:Yeah.
Gary Johannes:All of us do the same. We've all trained together same as Nicole. Do you think the fact that when we're particularly dealing with people in the trades or or Maine in particular, that us never needing to understand the past and never gonna get you to tell us your story in detail so you don't have to feel vulnerable helps you move forward so you can look at what's coming up rather than drag along your history.
James Wand:Yeah. A 100%. Because what Nicole did with me, which I loved, is she kind of she got me to sign an an unwritten contract with her every week. I went to see her, and she tricked me into watching the rugby. And and I would go home.
James Wand:I'd go, I've been tricked. And then and Olivia will say, what do you mean? I'll say, she's bloody done it again. I've got to sit down at 4:45 with my pint, and I've gotta be ready for the rugby. She's like, well, why?
James Wand:I said, because that's what Nicole said. And if I don't do it, she's gonna ask me if I did it.
Gary Johannes:So so let me just ask you a question. Did Nicole say that, or did you tell Nicole that's what you was gonna do?
James Wand:Oh, I oh, I told Nicole, but somehow she got me doing things that she was putting me first, and and I think that's the difference. I've I've been putting my children first.
Gary Johannes:Everybody's laughing because we that's exact that's what we're doing. It's nothing special, but we get you to come up. You're the expert on you.
James Wand:The old children. You're the
Gary Johannes:expert on your children, but we just have to ask the right questions. So you tell us your expertise about you watching the rugby.
James Wand:Yeah. Yeah. So because the thing is, I've I've always been a massive sport fan. I I always used to watch football religiously. It had to be live.
James Wand:Couldn't watch it recorded. But, obviously, your kids come into your life. They take priority. So our whole life was revolved around giving our kids the best life we could possibly give them. But, obviously, in in doing that, you just neglect yourself straight away.
James Wand:But I I was finding myself, but when when I did watch that movie match, and I would go back and speak to Nicole, she said, are you okay? And I thought, you know, I had a really nice weekend.
Gary Johannes:Yeah.
James Wand:And then and then that there's the happy hormones kicking in, and we we now find ourselves saying to friends that whilst these forums on Facebook, these Facebook forums with parents, they're great to have a community. But when you're in that depressed state, it's one of the worst places to be.
Gary Johannes:Because everybody's loading with problems.
James Wand:Yeah. And you're just feeding yourself. So when you've had a bad day and then you sit there and you start scrolling, you're just feeding yourself negativity. Mhmm. Constant.
Gary Johannes:So I've got a last question for you, which is very controversial. Very controversial. And then I know Christopher wants to wrap it up by asking all the normal stuff. I get people who are speaking to me all the time, those people, those external people, and they go, ADHD. It's just a fashion now.
Gary Johannes:Everybody's ADHD. Everybody's looking for a diagnosis. How's how does that fit with you? That everybody has ADHD or looking or using it.
James Wand:I believe we're all different neurotypical brains, definitely. We're all individuals. But with my children, I can see when you compare to other children, they do need that additional support. And the problem is everyone goes, oh, you just want the label. Well, sometimes you do because in this day and age, just saying that your child needs support or you need support isn't enough.
James Wand:And And when you actually learn so much about a subject such as autism or ADHD because you've had to, There's so much need there that's under the under the radar that you can't physically see. Unless you understand what it is and have the diagnosis and know what you're researching, how can you how can you ever begin to know what you what support they need? And it's only through our own learning that we our children need so much more support than that's on the surface, and people just don't understand it. And and Nicole said in our meetings that she said to me something about ADHD. And I know I said it.
James Wand:She went, you think? And and friends of mine have all and also have also said ADHD ADHD because my brain is a 100 miles an hour. It it can doing this podcast, I've got so many different thoughts coming in about jobs and work and stuff. I can't
Gary Johannes:But do you need need a label? Or going for a label, would that just be you? See, I I'm now one of the ADHD clan, And I and and I can go, oh, sorry. I couldn't come into work today because I had ADHD with worse today. So that's what people are saying.
Gary Johannes:There's a new bad back.
James Wand:I I think to be honest, I I think there are some people there are again, controversial. There are some people that go, well, I think I'm ADHD. I think I'm autistic. And I think there all there is always gonna be that passion that people will jump on it because it's just something to have. But if there is a genuine need, then you should have it.
James Wand:You should have you should have the label, and you should have the diagnosis because it helps others around you understand probably why you acted the way you acted, why you're struggling that day. There's nothing I don't know. It's people do jump on the fashions.
Benn Baker-Pollard:Or is it people that are trying to self diagnose because they can't see a health promotion and actually get the diagnosis because it's on
James Wand:the floor? But you can
Benn Baker-Pollard:always Google signs and symptoms.
James Wand:Yeah. Well, yeah. Exactly. And I've convinced myself I'm ADHD through googling, But it might just be the fact of my lifestyle and the fact that I've got so much going on. That's why my brain never switches off, because I don't give myself that time to stop and and to focus.
James Wand:So I don't know. It is a controversial one, really. I don't know the exact answer, but I know without a diagnosis from my children's perspective, they can't get support.
Chris Johannes:Yeah. Well, I think that's the important thing. In today's systems that we have to live by today's schooling, it's a late having the label is not something to be ashamed of. Without that recognition, the support just isn't there, unfortunately. And I wish we were in a situation where it didn't matter what the label was.
Chris Johannes:Everybody got the support that individual needed. Because like you said, every neurotypical person has just as many different needs as every neurodiverse person. You know? Yeah. We all have our own needs.
Chris Johannes:But like you say, the people with neurodivergence, they do need that extra bit of support. And without that recognition, that label, if that's what you wanna call it, that's not open to them. So it just it is just the way we are things are now, and I think we have to recognize that. You know?
James Wand:Yeah. So quickly, I I listened to a podcast not not long ago when I was trying to sort out my own headspace and writing a book and stuff. And there was an autistic guy on there, and he said, in schools, in his opinion, it'd be much better if we didn't have autism or ADHD because everyone's an expert on them. Mhmm. Everyone's a self confessed expert that they know best.
James Wand:If you went to a teacher and said my child is neurodivergent, they'd have to look into them as an individual, not as a label. Yeah. Yeah. And I kinda listened to it, and I thought, god, he's right. Because I know for a fact that every single teacher and professional officer come across and said, we've got ADHD or autism.
James Wand:They know more than me because they've they've learned an hour of it as part of the training.
Chris Johannes:Yeah. Of course.
James Wand:And that they're an expert. But if you go to them and say, my child's neurodivergent, they go, woah. This needs looking into. And then all of a sudden, they'll meet the need, not the label. Of course.
James Wand:Yeah. I think that's quite profound.
Chris Johannes:It is. Again, I think that's a whole other podcast though talking about the the labels and the the schooling systems. But, we do need to wrap up. So it has been really great talking to James. Ben, Peter, have you got anything last things you wanna say to Pete, James before we go?
Peter Ely:Just to say thank you very much for for being so open and sharing everything with us. And I hope that we weren't too hard on you and that you wanna do more podcasts because what you've gotta say is really important.
James Wand:That's good because I feel like I've just waffled.
Gary Johannes:Well, that's that's the way we do it. We just waffle because people love to hear true stories rather than systematic questioning.
James Wand:Yeah. No. And I'm and I'm grateful. I'm grateful because I it's not until you experienced it yourself and you've been in a dark place. I never understood mental health until I nee until I accepted what it is.
James Wand:Yeah. And that's only if we're going through my own trials and tribulations. So, yeah, but it it doesn't take long to get there.
Benn Baker-Pollard:Thanks for me as well, James. It's been a a really fantastic conversation, and I've already got clients that I'm gonna be recommending to read your book because, they're they're on that journey that you and your family have experienced.
James Wand:So Yeah. Well, thank no. Thank you because again, somebody had turned around to me 8 years ago and said, there's this guy with a book. I needed that book.
Chris Johannes:Yeah. Absolutely. On that subject, James, do you wanna tell just to finish up, do you wanna tell the listeners where they can find your book for a start, where they can find any, social media around you, and any links that you've got to stuff that you want people to know about?
James Wand:The books, autism and ADHD, a father's perspective, it is all on presale now with Amazon, Waterstones, Barnes and Noble. I'm expecting it to be on ebook format any day now too. I I will be setting up Instagram posts, etcetera, and I will get landing page probably linked to Facebook. I think we're going with the tag James Wand author. That was help from Nicole as well.
James Wand:So there is stuff in the process, and I'm I'm hoping to kick start helping other people in some way. I just don't know how yet. We're just at the book stage at the moment.
Chris Johannes:Well, if you ever fancy a change of career, then we need more male hypnotherapists. Yeah. And you and you and you seem like you'd fit the bill perfectly.
James Wand:I do. I wouldn't mind giving it a go. Once once my home life settled down a little bit, I think when the kids are a bit happier, I'd I'd love to. I the the the feeling I've got from helping the other men that have now opened up to me, and that we had a couple of private messages from a, newspaper article last week, and I sat in bed next to George, and I started welling up. Mhmm.
James Wand:Because you re you realize that actually by being brave and getting your story out, people genuinely need to know they're not alone.
Peter Ely:And I
James Wand:did get I did get a really feeling of pride for what I've done just reading people's messages. I love it. I absolutely love it.
Gary Johannes:Yeah. Get used to that now because, you know, we get plenty, but you're giving on Nicole a lot of praise. I'm just gonna say that that's Hummingbird hypnotherapy.
James Wand:Yeah. Nicole. Yeah. Hummingbird. Yeah.
Gary Johannes:Hummingbird hypnotherapy and bone. Just if anybody wants to locate that, Again, we will do that as well. So, you know, there's lots of people out there who do solution focused work, lots of people who don't. But you've gotta find your groove, the people who, like you say, who fit you, and that's really important. And Yeah.
Gary Johannes:You know? But you should get used to it. We get plenty, and we haven't got your backstory. So that's amazing. So I'm very pleased.
Gary Johannes:Thank you for coming on and sharing your stuff.
James Wand:Thank you very much for giving me the opportunity to talk. Yeah. I think we all need to. Definitely.
Chris Johannes:I think it's
Peter Ely:just a
Chris Johannes:sincere thank you, James. I mean, there's lots of people who need to hear this story, and I think it's fantastic. So thank you for coming on, and thank you for writing your book.
James Wand:No. Thank you very much. Thanks for helping me get the get the message out.
Gary Johannes:Thank you for listening to the podcast that proves men do talk.
Benn Baker-Pollard:If you would like more information or support, then please visit inspired to change dotbiz,
Peter Ely:where you can learn more about us and the inspired to change team.
Chris Johannes:And remember, the conversation continues on our social media, inspired
James Wand:mentor.
