Inspired Men Talk: Breaking the Stigma of Men's Mental Health

Welcome to Inspired Men Talk for solution focused therapists born in four different decades who openly and honestly discuss their perspective on the issues surrounding men's mental health. The things that Stigma says we don't talk about it. This week we have a very special guest on the show, his name is G, and we're coming on today to talk about Banter Part 2.

So as some of you will remember that we did an episode a couple of weeks back now talking about banter and when does banter actually become bullying. G reached out to me and said he would have loved to have been on the podcast, so he's here this week to join us. Um, G, do you want to introduce yourself?

Uh, yeah. Hi Ben. Um, my name's G, uh, the protagonist of the BAFTA winning film, The Black Cop. Um, 2023, uh, also national diversity award, positive role model of the year, 2023, uh, and Ben's friend, 2023. Um, I was a former police officer in the Metropolitan Police in London. I'm a facilitator by trade. I run a company called, uh, Purple Frog Connections.

Which basically is about, um, creating space for courageous conversations to take place, um, and getting people to talk about what really matters. And, you know, in a safe space. So basically I hold space for those conversations to, to happen. Excellent. In short.

And obviously I've had the real privilege, um, through my career and through my training, um, to be a inspector in the police of you actually coming and delivering your talk.

And that's how I got to meet you and the impact you had from the delivery was phenomenal. And I'm very grateful to have you as a friend and thank you very much for coming on the show today. As usual, we've got our group of four on. So we've got Gary, Peter and Chris with us as well. But we're going to jump straight in.

Sajid, banter part

two. Can I ask a question first, Ben? Go for it. Yeah. What would be useful for me? Because this is the part two. So what kind of happened in part one?

So in part one, we were talking about when does banter become bullying? And when does that effectively, that fine line get crossed? Is it good to have banter?

Is it bad to have banter? And what sort of the impact is in the workplace? What we kind of came to the conclusion in our little bit was, is that banter is needed for some people to get through those dark times. It's a crucial part of being able to get through some of the rough things that people see.

And banter that takes place between two individuals when they're good friends is generally okay and acceptable, but it starts to go. It's a little bit astray when other people join in and think that they can use the same banter, or when someone picks up on something and uses it to berate an individual and it's a consistent theme that they continue to deliver each time which actually turns into bullying.

So obviously you've got a wealth of experience from your background and your experiences from joining the police. What's your

take on banter? I mean basically summed up what you've just said there. There's um. A fine line between banter being bullying and banter being, uh, uniting, if that makes sense. Um, but also it's, it, it, it's, it's a difficult area because what, what do you define as banter?

You know, because one man's banter could be another man's sense of humor, so to speak. Uh, and, and where do you draw that line and, and who has the responsibility for defining

banter? Yeah, I, I, I, it's Gary here. I think that's a. Really good question. I'm ex services, I'm into my rugby, I've run nightclubs and bars and restaurants and I'm now a therapist.

And in each arena, it's been very different. So in the Air Force, the level of banter in any other sphere would definitely be bullying, you know. And maybe I was, you know, I'm the old man of the group as they keep telling me. in their banterish ways. Um, but there you go, case in point, you know, but it's, but it's, you know, what, what was done then wouldn't be allowed.

Now you'd be drummed out of the forces for that, but it was acceptable then whether it was right or wrong. I don't know, but it was a cultural thing in the, on the rugby field. You can be, you know, quite aggressive with it. Quite pointed with it, but everybody's in it together. You'd be fighting on a rugby pitch and then drinking in the bar in the evening together.

So it was an acceptable thing. You know, I think there's, well, it just changes with the thing. And I think nowadays we don't know it. But my issue is you do get those people who weaponize it. Yeah.

And I would say. Yeah. Sorry. Sorry. I love the fact you keep pausing and I keep thinking that.

Well, that would be Ben's issue.

Because I mean, where I was going to come in there, Gary was, there's also that weaponized where we use it against ourselves. Uh, and the reason why I say that is because I did that. early in my career. Part of my reason for joining the police when I first joined, or part of the reason for that, I grew up at a time where I was ashamed to be black.

Wow. Um, because everything around me told me that black was negative. So part of my reason for joining the police was I wanted something to say that I could say, I'm one of you, I'm not one of them. Um, so I was one of the people in the canteen who told the racist jokes. Yes. I told the homophobe jokes, I invited the banter because I felt that that's what I needed to do to fit in.

I think

that's a really good thing you've touched on there, and I think that's not something that we brought up in our last conversation about banter, but actually now you've said it, you see that a lot, and I think we're all probably guilty of that a little bit, you'll, you'll take it on the chin as it were, just to be part of the group, or if you've already got that name for yourself for being the clown of the group, you will continue living up to that, even if it isn't quite where you want to be, I don't know.

To maintain your position in the group, you'll keep living up to that expectation. You made a bad joke once and now that's, that's who you are. So you've got to keep up with that to stay as your position, to keep your position in the group. So that's a really, really interesting point you've made there.

And I see it quite a lot. Um, I'm a scout leader, um, and I see it quite a lot with the young kids. So, um, there's one that comes to mind. I've said, I'm not going to name them. There's one that comes to mind that, um, he. He's got this bit of a reputation for being that really silly, stupid, clownish character.

And he's not stupid. But he will act as a stupid person, because that's what everybody expects, you know? And then he is subject to the banter for that. But like you say, he's almost inviting that on himself, because that's where he feels his position is. That's where he adds the value of people laughing, but they're laughing at him, not with him.

But that's all he knows how to do now. And he's sort of trapped in that, that area. So that's a really, really interesting point you've touched on there, that you can turn banter on yourself.

I mean, one of the things I do Sorry. No, that's all

right. Yeah, I mean, most like that's the way that you get it to unite, get yourself to unite with the rest of the group, right?

So when everybody's doing it, so like when you're going through a difficult time, everybody's doing the banter. But if you're not going through a difficult time, but you feel on the outside, It's your way of kind of becoming part of the group, right? It's your way of uniting yourself with that group or associating yourself with that group by making yourself

either the

focus of ridicule or, I mean, I do a little bit of stand up comedy, just so you know, G, and, and, you know, being that And being that person that you, you kind of then feel like you're fitting in and it's your way to kind of say, Hey everybody, look at me, I am like you, I fit in.

And that's what I, I kind of had it when I was at, when I was younger at school, that was my kind of banter piece was to help me fit in with the group of people around.

But it's, it's, it's the question and the question, and I asked this question when I What do we give up to fit in? Because that's the thing, there's fitting in to be part of the group, but there's also how much do I sacrifice of myself to want to be part of that group.

And for me, I sacrificed my color, I sacrificed my sexual orientation, I made myself miserable because I felt That's what I needed to do. If they see me for this big black guy, they're not going to like me. So how can I make myself fit in?

Yeah, that's it. I've, um, that statement you made earlier. But you brought it in on yourself and you didn't want to be seen as the black guy.

That's really upset me. And nothing upsets me, just so you know. I don't do upset very much. But it took me straight back to being young in the Air Force and coming from South London in Croydon. And seeing And I'm just going back to a lot of close friends I had who was of color, or whatever they were, who, and even some stuff I did myself to fit in.

And I just realized that they were being what I needed them to be, rather than who they were. And that came from so much. And I'm just sitting here thinking, wow, how powerful that statement is just saying, because that's got nothing to do with what I would call banter. But because I didn't know, or I didn't recognize, or I couldn't see because of my age or my stupidity or whatever, I didn't know that that wasn't somebody being, just enjoying it.

So I couldn't not be that, and I actually maybe made it worse. Wow,

I'm sorry. No, thank you. Thank you for saying that, um, Gary. I mean, the thing about it, though, is that there's, there's, and if you see my film, there's a picture in my film. That's of an incident and it always saw like drags people down. And basically what happened was when I was at Hendon as a new recruit, I was desperate to fit in.

And there was a moment where, uh, some guys burst into my room, uh, in the, in, under the umbrella of banter. I said, you're the wrong color to be in this job, but okay, we know how to do it right and sort it out. And they took, so I had some shoe whitener on the shelf, which they took and they painted me white.

And they said, there you go, now you fit in. And we took a photograph together. Because we all were in the banter. Now, if you asked the me, then, what was I doing, what was I thinking? As far as I was concerned, that was banter. And I was okay with it then. As I've grown up and looked back on it, it's like What the hell was I doing?

But also, people have said, well, why didn't you report it? I said, because all of us in that picture were acting based on our level of awareness and understanding at that time. Every one of us has to take responsibility for our part in that picture. I'm not going to go to them because I allowed them to do it to me.

That

picture still stops me in my tracks every time I see it. Still sends chills down my spine. I look at it and I think Wow, Christ, what was going on? You know, if we look at from then to now, do you think it's changed or do you think it's just in a different disguise?

I think it's, I think it's going to get worse before it gets better.

When you listen to some of the political rhetoric that's coming out nowadays. And it's, it's coming from a place of polarization. And I think that when we're in that place of polarizing, we're increasing the banter playing field, so to speak. But there's a more, um, insidious element to it. Now, you know, it's not, it's not coming from a humorous place.

You think there's still a place

for BAMSA? I mean, you know, I appreciate what you're saying and I think, you know, if we, if we look at that sort of polarization and we look at actually, we've almost got this cancel culture going on, haven't we? And that nothing can happen and that everything we do now is wrong in one shape or another because it gets put on social media and everybody's shot down for it.

And we also see large organizations making sweeping statements across the board to try and Eradicate banter, but actually what that, all that does in turn is, is turn into banter that they've sent it in the first place and they don't actually address the underlying issues around it.

And what you do is that you actually force it underground.

Yeah. Then you start to get the, the WhatsApp groups. Um, and then the, the downside of that, one of the downsides of the WhatsApp group, one of the painful things that if you're somebody from a marginalized group, whether that be color, gender, sexual orientation, whatever, and you're there, you don't know who's in those WhatsApp groups.

So you may not actually hear the banter or see the jokes, but you're aware that it's happening. And you don't know whether it's about you or not. You don't know whether the person next to you is one of the people in that group. And that's why I talk about the insidious nature of it. I mean, going back to the thing is, I think there's a space for, especially in the police or emergency services or some of the armed forces, there's a space for the, for some of that dark humor and that dark because it's a kind of stress relief.

But it's, it's how that's managed. It's whether or not supervisors or leaders or managers know how to manage that. Yeah, definitely. That's a really

valid point, because as you were talking, I kind of made a little, I've been asking myself little questions, like, you know, do we need better guidance on how to do banter?

Because when it's in the open, it's a really positive thing, as you say. It's there to help

with that stress relief. I think there was a

photograph after Build of a lot of, um, firemen sitting down and they were all smiling and laughing, you know. And obviously that was a really difficult situation.

Obviously someone said something to break the

tension for them. Yeah.

Right? Um, but it was an in joke for those people that were sat there then. And then people seeing the photograph afterwards got really offended by it. Or some did anyway. And I think that's it. If it's hidden. Banter is hidden or it, the suspicion starts to come around.

Are they talking about me? And if they're talking about me, can't they talk about me openly? What, what is it that they're saying? And all of a sudden people get stuck in

their own heads. It's funny. Cause I saw something with Jimmy Carr, the comedian, and he gets in hot water, you might say, because he's humor, the stuff he puts out is.

Apparently very close to the knuckle and but is it close to the knuckle or is it comedy and We are getting getting upset. I don't know the right word. I'm searching for the right word, but Everything is offensive everything. So when does Schumer become offensive or is it that we're taking everything too seriously?

We're always now looking for a problem rather than seeing it for what it is. And you know, because people are now going, I'm, I find that offensive. And it's just like, it was a joke.

So You've kind of taken the next question out of my mouth here, Gary, that was going round in my brain. And that was, what's the stance on the point of banter when you're maybe having genuine banter between you and your friend, but someone else comes in and takes offence to it?

I think we

touched on this a little bit last time we covered banter, didn't we? Yeah. Yeah, it is that. I think one of the things I said last time was, I think there's this line between this is an offensive joke or it was an individual was offended by it. So there's a, I think there's a difference that needs to be found between what's offensive.

And what offended you as an individual? Because like you said, if me and you are having a joke between ourselves, but then Peter walked in and heard, overheard the joke and was a bit like, Oh, that's a bit out of my taste. I don't quite like that. That's offensive. Me and you weren't offended by it. We were having a joke between ourselves.

It didn't offend either party involved. But it offended Peter, but then, then becomes a question, well, does that mean we're not allowed to have our conversations just in case there was, I mean, the firemen are not allowed to smile if somebody cracks a joke because somebody's going to take a picture and it's going to offend thousands of people, you know, it's where that line is between it's an offensive thing, like painting somebody a different color, which is clearly offensive.

Or it's something that is taken out of context that has offended somebody because they weren't in the conversation that was there. And I

think you've used the word there that I was waiting for. You said context. It is, it is about context because, um, I, the way I talk about it, when I talk about it in my groups, I say there's what I call agenda A conversations.

And agenda B conversations, agenda A conversations are the conversations we have in the workplace. The standards we're expected to professional conversations. Agenda B conversations is where the banter takes place. Now I say if you have an agenda B conversation in an agenda A environment. You're in play.

I like that. That's a really,

really good take on

that, actually. And that's the sort of thing, I think, it comes back to that education, doesn't it? Yeah. And it comes back to, that's the sort of things that people should be learning from a young age. Yeah. You know, as a scout leader, that's the sort of, um, things I should be teaching the young people.

You know, there's a time and a place, effectively. There's a

time and a place, and know your audience.

Yeah, absolutely. And it takes a bit of social

intelligence. Yes. But also at the same time is that there's that part of it, I mean, I remember it's not a banter thing, but it goes to that point. I was doing, I don't know if you're aware of the, um, what would you like said at your funeral exercise?

Yeah, at

my age, it's something what sort of like people keep sending to me, you know, memes about.

Yeah. Um, but you know, I remember I was doing that exercise with a group and somebody in the group who just lost. A relative started to have a go at me that you were very insensitive. You were very dissonant.

And so I stopped. I said, hold on. What do you think the intention was? Right. Was, do you think I came in here with the intention to offend you or to upset you? Right. Why are you asking me to take responsibility for something that I wasn't aware of? Right. It wasn't my intention to hurt you. I'm sorry that you feel hurt.

And I'm sorry that this tapped into or triggered you in some way. But I'm asking you also to appreciate that that wasn't my intention and have an adult conversation around it. I think sometimes we want We look for, yeah, I remember somebody taught me this thing about we all carry a bag of shit. And there are some people who want other people to carry their bag of shit for them and they look for shit carriers.

So they'll come up to you and say, Oh, this is my shit. I'm giving it to you. And what we do is like, Oh, I'm sorry. Um, I don't know, the skill is being able to say thank you, but this actually belongs to you. Yeah, yeah. It's not my shit.

I, I, I talk about a pen. Will you take the, will you take that, that end of the pen, the shitty end of the pen?

And it's your choice whether you take it or not, you know, and, and I, I, I've actually, you know, unfortunately people I'm finding are saying. You've got to make sure what you deliver would not offend anyone at any level, on any level in any shape or form. And if you do, so you were offensive on that day because you didn't think that somebody in that room might be offended by a simple exercise, which was never intended to upset anyone, but you didn't, you wasn't mindful of everybody.

But then the thing is you can't be, you see, that's, that's, that's the thing is that I look at when people talk about diversity and stuff like that for me, the definition of diversity for me is learning to know that you don't know, because when you know you don't know, I think there's this pressure to say you have to know everything.

If you've never engaged with the trans community, you're not going to know about the subtleties on it. If you've never engaged with the Nigerian community or the Yoruba people, for example, right, you know, it's not about being black. Let's take it down to the Yoruba people or the Yoruba people from a particular town.

You have a, you know, we're not meant to know all those details. Yeah. And I, and I think part of that, part of it, the healthy conversation is if that happens, it's not what happens, it's how we deal with it. How do we have a conversation? What's the learning here? And that's the conversation we don't have.

Yeah. And I don't think anybody now accepts that if you don't know it's your fault, your problem is what they're saying rather than, let me educate you. You know, I know that me and Ben have had a couple of conversations and one of the podcasts we talked about, um, recently was, I'm a middle aged white man.

Mm-Hmm. Okay. I'm heterosexual. Mm-Hmm. And he and Ben, he upset me a little bit because Ben said. There are gay men who won't come to see you because they don't believe you'll get it. And I've seen many people of every orientation, but there's 50 shades of gay, apparently, and bisexual and all the different gender differences.

And it's not about me. It's about they know what they're going through. I ain't got a clue. I'm just like Yeah, they're right. I don't know nothing. And I accept I don't know nothing. So I won't go tell, you know, I know what you're going through and, but most people won't accept that. Yeah.

And I think it's also about, I mean, one of the things I do, like I've worked with all sorts of groups, uh, from all sorts of backgrounds and, and the thing that I, how I work it in my head is that I'm not here.

Okay. Yeah. And put it into a story. I was working with a very, very senior police officer around some trans stuff. And she said to me, she goes, gee, I don't get this trans stuff. I really don't get it. It doesn't make sense to me. And I said, it's not yours to make sense of. And she goes, what do you mean? I said, all you need to do is to recognize that for that group of people, this is their issue or these are their issues.

You just have to accept that that's their issues. You don't need to know issues. You just have to be open enough to hear them, to engage with them and be friendly with them. But you don't need to, I don't need to know what your issue is. I just need to respect the fact that you have one. I don't need to know what your story is.

I just need to respect the fact that you have one. My role is to hold space for you to explore your story, not to tell you your story, not to be part of your story. But to allow you to explore it for yourself, you know, all the things

you're saying, it's follows a lot of our principles as we are all therapists with solution focused therapists.

So everything you're saying really mirrors. That ethos and that culture that we use on a day to day basis, we don't need to go over what your issues are to help you on your path forward, you know, with solution focused, we're looking at the goals, the what we can get to. And I think if you take that solution focused mindset and put it to what you're talking about.

You come to the same result. We don't need to know everybody's issues and banter. We don't, we're not all going to be aware of what everybody's sensitive to. But if we're all working on the same path of we're not going to the negatives, we're not going to go in searching for your problems to make sure that we understand.

We're just going to be mindful of it and move forward with it.

And that's the word again, mindful, be mindful. Absolutely. And how you, it's how you deal with it when it happens. That's what, I mean, I've been having, I want to go to a dentist and, um, uh, and I've been researching different dentists for the work I need doing.

And there's this one dentist that somebody recommend, this agency recommends, oh, they're really good. And I looked online and some of their reviews were really scathing, horrible reviews. And they contacted me and said, Oh, you know, we were happy to have you. I said, no, I've just read some of your reviews and they said, no, ignore those reviews.

Most of our people are overwhelmingly positive. Why aren't you looking at the positive reviews? I said, because I expect you to have positive reviews, but where the ones that tell me about your compassion and your understanding is the way in which you deal with the negative reviews. That tells me a lot more about your business and what you're doing is dismissing them.

Absolutely.

And I think some of the bigger companies like Amazon have nailed that. They are, they'll be, everybody raves about their customer service because they will take the bad reviews and deal with that and they will showcase. It's problem solving, you know, so it's there for everybody to see, and I think they've nailed that psychology behind that.

So it is, it is all about how we deal with it. So I mean, bringing it back to banter, it is like you say, we're all going to make mistakes in banter. I think, I think we need to accept that sometimes we're all going to fall, fall foul to that. Oh, you've, you've stepped across somebody's line because we don't know where everybody's line is.

And it's how you deal with that afterwards that tells you whether it was banter, or whether it was bullying with intention, you know, it, I think it is that aftermath that decides that,

how do you, um, so, you know, obviously there's, we're saying there is a place for banter in certain circumstances, and I love, you know, your A and the B scenario that you presented is with, that's a fantastic way of looking at it.

What do you think banter's impact is on men's mental health? If I give you, you know, if we look at some of those trade based roles where there's banter every day, how do you think that impacts mental health?

And I'm glad you said it because it was a context. And again, to me, it just goes back to that philosophy is that everybody's carrying a bag of shit.

You don't know what's in people's bags. You don't know what people are carrying. And I think it's difficult to have a one answer fits all. It's like a hedgehog. Everybody has a point.

How did, if you don't mind sharing, Gene, how did the banter that you experienced impact your mental

health? It, I mean, the banter didn't start in the police.

Right. So let's get that first part right. What the police did is exasperated it, but it didn't start in the police. It started way before that. You know, I grew up in an environment where I was a foster child in, uh, a white foster, a black foster child. White foster? Yeah, I was Chinese before.

I was a black foster child in a white environment. So, you know, there were always jokes about my color. So I was conditioned to accept that kind of banter. I didn't see a problem with it. I then went from being eight years old. I was then kidnapped by my natural parents who took me to London. So I've gone from an all white environment to an all black environment.

And a lot of what drove a lot of this stuff was I never had a sense of belonging. I always felt like an outsider. And that's what kind of pushed me to do crazy things to try and fit in because I had no sense of self. I had no sense of place. Um, going to my natural parents, my father's response to me being confused was to beat the crap out of me.

So I spent a lot of time in and out of children's homes and stuff like that. Uh, during those eight years, then he sent me to Nigeria, um, or tricked me into going to Nigeria where part of that time out there I was, I spent a year homeless on the streets of Lagos. Um, I was in Nigeria for about eight years, managed to get my way back to the UK.

Um, came back, eight years is a long time to be away from somewhere. So I came back again to a world I thought I knew. But eight years, the world has changed a lot. So I've suddenly come back to a world I don't know. So again, I didn't know where to belong. Joining the police was kind of like the first major decision I had made for myself.

And I just was desperate for somewhere to belong. Going into the police, like I said, it exasperated some of that stuff because it was, it didn't feel like banter in the police. It felt like digs. And I remember being at Hendon and a lot of these comments and microaggressions were taking place and I went and I sat down with one of the sergeants to explain to him how I was feeling.

And I remember I sat there and I talked for about 45 minutes about how this was making me feel. And at the end of it, he just looked at me and he said, You know what your problem is, son? You got a chip on your shoulder. And I just remember thinking, you haven't heard a word I've said. And over the next few years, things started to build up and build up and build up.

And my behavior became more and more erratic to try and fit in. I would spend money like, if I buy everyone a drink, that'll make everyone happy. If I, you know, at one point I took a group of guys out to New York. I took out a loan of 15 grand and took four guys on the team to New York for the weekend.

Blew the 15 grand because I wanted them to tell people I'm a good guy. That's how desperate I was to, to be fitting in. And that took me to a place where I just got to a place where I just couldn't take anymore. Underneath all of that, I'm hiding my sexual orientation. And I got to, and I think I got to a place where everything just started to collapse in on itself.

The only person who hadn't told me who I was. Was me and I was trying to fulfill everybody else's expectation. And the problem is everybody has a different expectation of who they think you should be. Um, and that, that, that trying to do that just weighed and weighed and weighed and dragged me down. The interesting thing though is that if I go back and I see people who knew me then, they all say, God, you were such a laugh.

You were the fun, you were the soul of the party. You were great. I remember you remember we did this and we did that and I'm looking, I think those extreme behaviors were me out of control

and it came to a point where I just ended up standing on a platform in Harrow on the Hill wanting to commit suicide. Um, I didn't in case you're wondering.

Well, we did wonder.

Yeah. Yeah, but that for me was the major turning point. Can I

ask you two questions? Yeah. Firstly, I know you used some of these extreme behaviours to fit in with those people, but on a general level, do you think even now you use banter to, not so much to fit in, but to, to manage stressful situations or where you're unsure, or you don't know where someone's coming from, so you'll use banter to break the ice?

Yeah.

Yes, I do. But I use it now. I'm more aware of what I'm doing. As opposed to back then I was doing it from a place of Loss, confusion, insecurity, fear.

So do you think you used it back then to hide that insecurity? Yeah, yeah. Because I think I, I, I see a lot of banter, particularly in the building trades and things like that.

Uh, Dorman used to be terrible at banter and it was like, actually I now know how weak some of those characters were in their own vulnerabilities. And they used that. The show to put, you know, like a suit of armor that banged towards their armor. Yeah. Um, but the second question, and I'm sorry, I'm asking all the questions on the bench, but they were leading this.

I want to know how you overcame and changed. The man, the man

I'm talking, but I took this, there was a one pill,

but, but we're solution focused. Yeah. So you went for a very challenging time and used banter and people excuse really, really poor behavior, which is unexcusable at any level and termed it as banter. So there was two elements of banter you went through, but. At the end of the day, you're sitting here, and apparently you're an award winning BAFTA filmmaker.

Oh, sorry, have I

mentioned

that? Um, how did you do that? Ah,

that's actually a question that makes me emotional.

That's right. You made me emotional. It's only fair

space. Thank you for taking that away. I wanted to sit with that feeling for a while. No, it's, and it makes me emotional because I'm proud of

myself.

I'm not in my head and nobody could see me, but yeah, I can see it. I can feel it.

Yeah. I I'm, I'm proud. I, I can't say there was one thing I can point to several different things. One, one of the biggest ones, and it's only recently that I've really, really, really appreciated this. Uh, part of the way in which I left Nigeria is that I didn't leave.

I escaped and I escaped because there was a guy. Who I met in Nigeria, who was a white guy who was working out there. Um, as an engineer who God knows why just saw me and decided to buy me a ticket back to London. He just out of the goodness of his heart. And that showed that what that said to me, it's only recently I've sort of really started to really read, appreciate it.

I was in a place of confusion and loss and anger and resentment and so much stuff holding me down. And through all of that. He saw something in me that was worth investing in.

In that one act, he changed my life. And I've noticed that ever since that time, in some way, shape, or form, and I think I'm doing it more profoundly now, I want to give that feeling to other people. And I think that that's become a really good drive for me. It's that I want you to feel that you are worth something.

Because I know what it feels like not to be worth something

that that's an amazing story and that moment, you know, it's one of those sliding door moments, which, you know, we have, but then you went on to say in the police force. Yeah, you got. So it's exacerbated by the banter and the conditioning and everything else.

So though that moment happened with you before I joined the police and then you still went through to the point where you was ready to take your life

because I hadn't fully understand. I hadn't fully understood that the impact of that moment when I came out of the breakdown, I remember having, I had a therapist.

Um, and when I came out, I remember the last session I had with him was almost like I called it my, um, goodwill hunting moment, uh, cause we were sitting in a park in, um, Paddington. And he said to me, gee, this is our last session, right? He says, but, um, can I give you a bit of advice? And I said, what's that?

And he goes, I don't think you should come back to the police. He said, my job is to get people back into the job. He said, I don't think you should come back. I think you should consider leaving and doing something else because I don't think the police is for you. He said, but it's your decision to make.

And uh, it's been great working with you and I wish you all the best. Bye. And I remember sitting in that park thinking, what do I do? And one of the things that came to me was, yes, there are behaviors and people within the police I don't like. But I loved the profession. I, and, and that's when I started to realize that I, part of my reason for doing the unconscious part of it was I wanted to do what Richard had given me.

I wanted to help people. I genuinely wanted to help people. Then I came back. So I came back into police and I got into training and I was fortunate, a series of fortunate circumstances. Yeah. Yeah. It was at the time of the Stephen Lawrence report and the department I went into was targeted or tasked with delivering the outcomes of that report and the training that went with it and because it was such a high profile department Money was thrown at us and we were taken on some phenomenal workshops and I had through that time for that I was with them for about three, four years.

In that time, I had some phenomenal training. I remember, I remember going to classes or workshops where you walk in and it's all white middle class people and I'm the only black person in the room and they start teaching. And to me as a black kid, it's almost like you're giving me the keys to the candy store.

I'm sitting there thinking, Oh my God, this is how you, this is how this shit works. And everyone I was going to, my mind was just blown. There's people sitting in that room going, Oh yes, this is lovely. And I'm like, lovely. This is awesome. Um, and it just, I just took to it like a Dr. Walter and what I found.

In that process, one of the biggest things, two things I found, one was, I don't have to be afraid of myself. Wow, that's profound. The second one, and the second one was, vulnerability is my superpower.

Oh, that's so hard to teach. We try and do it all the time. That's, it's got to be,

but those two things are the two things that have been, I got from that department.

I think over the years, I've just built on those two foundations and every experience I've had has been about working with those two things. And I haven't always done it conscious about I'm actually staying with my nephew this week. Down in, uh, Brighton. And he always used to say to me, Uncle, vulnerability is your superpower.

He said, you are at your most powerful when you're at your most vulnerable. And I never got it. And it's only recently I've started to do that. And if I could just share one lastly, and I don't know if there's somebody else. I, about three weeks ago, three, four weeks ago, I, I did an interview for the BBC World Service.

And the guy, the producer, the interviewer, the sound engineers, were three amazing individuals. Really. They made me feel really comfortable from the off. When I did the interview, it was supposed to be an hour long program, but recording, we ended up doing four hours and it was the most, I just let myself be vulnerable.

I let go. And I felt them holding that space for me to do that, which was really powerful. And I just went, All out. And the result is it was supposed to be an interview that was, that was supposed to come out for Black History Month and they've turned around and said, no, this is too powerful for Black History Month.

We want to do it as a separate standalone so that it can get the credit it deserves. And not only that, it said, normally we do one program, but we're going to split this over two because there's just so much there. And in that, in that interview, what, what happened for me is that there's about three or four times in that interview, I just burst into tears.

And I just let my raw, the rawness of the emotion and the feeling and everything like that. And it was, it was an awesome feeling. And I think that in answer to your question, Gary, when I looked at that, that's what all these years have given me, right? It's not one key thing. It's not one turning point.

There's been little turning points, little things like knobs, somebody twisting and dialing the knobs to try to tune me in. You know, experiences are tuning me in all the time, and this is just where I am today. Based on that then,

G, as we talk about one of our main things about Inspired Men Talk and why we're here is because of this rhetoric that actually men don't talk.

Yeah. Um, what would you give as your one piece of advice to anybody who is going through a tough time, struggling with their mental health, whether that's because of banter or if that's another factor in their life. If you had one of those key turning points or those knobs that you would turn, what would that be that you'd share with someone to help them start that journey of being able to change their mental health and expose their vulnerabilities?

Yeah. It's a chapter. Whatever you're going through is a chapter. It's not the whole book. It's not the whole book. And at the time, some chapters are long, sometimes there's a short, but they're not the whole book. And that's why I think with whatever I'm going through, I think this is just a chapter. And I hold that.

That gives me that, that confidence to work through it. Knowing that there's, you know, I saw an interview, not an interview, a program, there's Tom Hanks, Robert De Niro, and a couple of other actors sitting around the table. And Tom Hanks says, look, If things are going well, everything's successful, don't worry, it'll pass.

If life is going down the tubes, everything's going wrong, don't worry, this too shall pass. Yeah. And whatever you're in is that phrase of this too shall pass. When you're in it, there's two bits I'll give. That's the first one. The second one I would say, and I say this to groups all the time, is that form a campfire group.

And a campfire group is finding that group of people where you can trust. Where you know you can sit around with them around the campfire late at night and you don't have to pretend.

Yeah, that, that, that's, uh, something we, we try and pass on all the time. And it's quite difficult when people are terrified of being vulnerable. Yeah. And I think, you know, those two things, like, you know, it shall pass. And find that One, two, three or four people, you can just have that conversation with Peter's talked about doing it when he's been down the pub with his mates and that, but you're, when you're in a pickle, you look at who you really can trust.

And they do come through like the man in Nigeria. There are some amazing people there.

Hey, it's been an absolute pleasure. To have you on the

podcast, but where do I send the invoice?

Um, and I've had the utmost privilege of being able to hear your entire story and you shared various segments of that today, which is part of the reason why I've been quiet because I know these guys have never heard that.

And in their responses and questions will come from it. Um, if people want to know more about your story, G, where do they go to find it? Where can they listen to it and connect?

Um. One of the, I'd say the first place is to go to the film on YouTube, which is called The Black Cop, uh, C. O. P., uh, make sure you spell it right, uh, uh, um, that's the first thing.

It's a 25 minute, that gives a basic entry to my world, so to speak. Or the world of geology, as I call it.

Outside of that, how do we, how do people, you know, your website? You can use social

media. www. purplefrogconnections. com Yeah, and my email address and all that is on there as well. Uh, or on Toral, my name. Uh, my, my Twitter handle is PurpleWisdom.

Cool. I, I, I, I, I could have listened to you all day. And, interestingly, I, I, maybe because we're I'm probably a little bit older than you, but not a lot of difference.

But

how old are you? Just out of

curiosity, I

88.

He's the size

of two fat ladies.

Are you

seriously 60? I've just this second turn 60 this in the last few weeks. Oh, I'm older than

you then. Put it in

perspective though, nobody in his family has ever lived past 60

before. Oh wow. So for

him he's old. No men.

So

for him he's old.

Wow.

That's awesome. Yeah. But. And it's also profound. Yeah. So many of your bits you've shared have been holding mirror up to me. Um, either because I've been on the wrong side of that or I've been on that side of it. So there's a lot of similarities between where you've been and where I've been.

And I, I was just turning over in my own head that it was when I was 45 to 47 that I started becoming the man I was always supposed to be. Mmm. And I've been, and I've been more vulnerable over the last few years before that vulnerability was a weakness and you'd be eaten alive. That's why I was brought up similar to, you know, and actually it's becoming more and more the person I am.

And interestingly, the people around me who knew the old me. Can't cope with me being open and honest. They, they found that very difficult for me not to be the person they knew and to be the person who I really am. And I hope that

a lifetime a reason or

a season. Yeah. And, and, and, and so listening to you, I could listen to you all day.

So, you know, hopefully we'll either have you on again to tell 'em more of the story and promote this film of yours, um, . And, um, yeah. Thank you so much for sharing and being so open and honest.

And I would echo that but and also just say when the when the World Service thing comes out if it hasn't come out already, please let us know.

I'm sure we'd all be happy to promote that as well across our platforms because it has been genuinely eye opening fascinating and you've triggered some stuff in me. So thank you for your time. Thank you.

Thank you. And I'll only be echoing what everybody else has already said, but it has been really, really fantastic to hear about, um, your story and to hear about you and to, to shed that different perspective on things that we've already spoken about once, but then just to have that new perspective on, it's been really, really, really something.

So again, without just echoing everybody else, it has really been, um, so much a pleasure to have you on and to hear your story, so thank you. Thank you.

Thank you. Thanks, G. Thank you for your friendship, mate. It's one of the best friendships I could ever have. You need to get

out more.

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