Inspired Men Talk: Breaking the Stigma of Men's Mental Health

Facial Difference Final Edit
Gary Elbert: [00:00:00] Welcome to
Peter Ely: Inspired Men Talk, four solution focused therapists born in four different decades who openly and honestly discuss their perspective on the issues surrounding
Gary Elbert: men's mental health, the things
Peter Ely: that stigma says we don't talk about. Hello and welcome to another episode of Inspired Men Talk. And with me as always is Gary, Chris and Ben.
Peter Ely: Hello guys.
Gary Elbert: Hello.
Peter Ely: Lovely to see you and we're very lucky today we're going to be talking about facial difference and we have a very special guest, uh, Gary Albert. Hello Gary.
Gary Elbert: Hello, Peter. How are you? Yeah, very
Peter Ely: well. Thank you. Um, and so to start the podcast, Gary, if you'd like to introduce yourself [00:01:00] to our listeners, tell us a little bit about yourself and why you have very kindly agreed to come and talk to us about this particular
Gary Elbert: topic.
Gary Elbert: Yeah, no problem, Peter. Um, I suppose just to give you a little bit of background. Excuse me. Um, I was born in 1981 with a cleft lip and palate. So it's, um, I suppose most people will be familiar with this. It's the most common, it's the most common, uh, birth defect or the most common congenital, uh, malformation.
Gary Elbert: Back in the day it would have been called a disfigurement, but now it's kind of more called a difference or a facial difference, you know, so. Give you an idea, one in 700, uh, babies generally, um, across the UK, Ireland, Europe, America, uh, are born with, uh, some type of cleft. There's different types of clefts, you know.
Gary Elbert: So yeah, that was, uh, back in 1981, born with a cleft. And, um, growing up then in the Midlands in Ireland, you know, when you, [00:02:00] when you're different in any way, or you look different in any way, it can be a challenge, you know, um, whether it's, The color of your skin, you know, whether you're, whatever the case may be, um, that can be a challenge.
Gary Elbert: So, uh, well, I certainly would have, it would have been a challenge to know about, you know, but in the last four or five years, I suppose, um, coinciding with, um, other things in my life, um, I've kind of become passionate about, uh, being open about discussing this because I know that there's other people out there in Ireland, in the UK and elsewhere.
Gary Elbert: that do struggle with some of the issues that it can present. Yeah, definitely.
Peter Ely: And if I, if I may just ask a little bit to, for you, what were some of those issues that you struggled with in, in maybe early, early life?
Gary Elbert: Just, just the fact that you're, um, you, you're different, first of all, Peter, you know, [00:03:00] and you're different in a way, like, if you think about the, the face itself, it's, uh, it's the more socially.
Gary Elbert: Uh, significant part of the body effectively, you know, it's how you communicate, it's how you express yourself, it's how you look and we do live in a very, um, appearance conscious, uh, image conscious world and culture. And that is, that's kind of hardwired, you know, you know, um, I can certainly discuss that further, but I mean.
Gary Elbert: When you look different, it can be weaponized against you, you know, and again, it's, it's no different to a person being bullied in school for whatever reason, but, um, it can be, it can be used against you. So, I would have, um, you know, had the name calling, I would have had that type of stuff, the taunting, um, and you know, in the school.
Gary Elbert: That's it. You know, it can, it can present some, some, some lifelong challenges as a result, yeah. Yeah, I
Peter Ely: can, I can imagine. [00:04:00] Um, I, I was born with a squint. And so, um, at 18 months, I had to have my left eye taken out. They twist it round and popped it back in. And so, for a lot of my younger life, I was always wearing glasses and I had a plaster over my good eye.
Peter Ely: Um. So again, not to the same extent, but for a period of time, I was very different from everybody else. So yeah, I can kind of, I can kind of see a little bit of that. I kind of understand a little bit of that. Jens, have you got any, any kind of questions, any thoughts on this so far? Chris?
Chris Johannes: Yeah, um, First of all, Gary, pleasure having you on.
Chris Johannes: Um, thank you for coming on and joining us. One of the things I'm, after listening to that, that I was thinking about is, um, you say you'd like to get into the community and talk about this. Now, do you think Children nowadays that are born with this are facing even more of an issue with the ex, with the expansive social media.
Chris Johannes: I mean, when we all [00:05:00] went to school, I'm sure everybody's experience being picked on and bullied for some reason or another. Um, but now with social media the way it is, do you, do you, do you deal with a lot of children and, um, hear about these stories and what difference they
Gary Elbert: might be facing now? Well, it's a very, very interesting question.
Gary Elbert: Uh, Chris, um, I mean. You know, effectively what you're asking is, are we more image conscious now than we have been before because of the technology, because social media that's available? Um, I would suspect that we are. How do you, how do you quantify it? How do you measure it? I'm not sure. But, um, from, from speaking with people, I can imagine that, you know, it can be more difficult now, um, for teenagers, for, for people, and adolescents, because, you know, social media is basically It's kind of like a hierarchy based on appearance, you know, it's, um, it's very superficial.[00:06:00]
Gary Elbert: There's really not much substance to it. And, you know, the, a person with a facial difference, you know, I mean, like I'm, I've kind of stopped using a lot of social media myself for that reason, Chris, because Like you find yourself, um, it produces some, some bizarre emotions, you know, where you feel like you're missing out.
Gary Elbert: You start comparing yourself to people that you never met, that type of stuff. Yeah. The, the part of your question though, when you said children, um, most children I would imagine are not on social media, but The, the challenges that having a cleft or having a facial difference, uh, presents for kids most certainly are still there.
Gary Elbert: Um, I gave a talk at the Clefton Lytton Palace, uh, Association of Ireland, AGM, last week. And after the talk I had some parents come up to me and, you [00:07:00] know, they, they did tell me that their kids are generally doing well. But it has, it has been different, you know, um, but I suppose to answer your question, I think we do live in a more image conscious world.
Gary Elbert: Social media magnifies that, um, and it's probably harder all around for people who may look different in any way, yeah. Just a
Chris Johannes: follow up question on that. Do you think that it could be used as a way to overcome some of these issues equally? I mean, we all know the devil of social media and things like that, but by doing things like this podcast we're doing today and other campaigns, do you think?
Chris Johannes: I mean, I'm talking as a parent of a 12 year old. So, um, even though they haven't got much social media, that stuff still follows them home from school, you know, um, that technology people. Can still follow you home from school in a virtual way. So do you think it can be used? As a positive tool to spread awareness, I mean, when you were growing up, you were maybe one of the only people in your [00:08:00] school.
Chris Johannes: Well, I would assume, um, correct me if I'm wrong, but I would assume that you, maybe you were one of the only people in your school or in your local area that was born with a cleft lip and things. And, you know, having that expanse of, Oh, I'm not the only one. Do you think that can be quite a good thing
Gary Elbert: as well?
Gary Elbert: Oh, uh, absolutely. Yeah, Chris, the, the third reply for me, um, I went from never talking about, I went from, if I was out for a few drinks with my mates, if anybody said anything or whatnot, um, it was, it would ruin the night best, you know, because I, I. I suppose I, I resented people for making it an issue, but I allowed other people to take control of it, but I've gone the opposite way now.
Gary Elbert: I have no problem talking about it. And what I find is, the more I talk about it to people, the more interested people are. And the more curious people are, uh, most, most people, of course, you know, and it does also, it does open up into a wider conversation then about [00:09:00] appearance, about, you know, we, we, we, we tend to conflate appearance with value and moral value, you know, and, um, when you start discussing these things, I think people do find it quite interesting, you know, and then as a result that allows me to be more open and, um, It just, again, it's, it's, this is a topic that's, that's been a taboo for, for, for years, for decades, you know, and it's being kind of swept under the carpet, hidden away.
Gary Elbert: And like a lot of things, a lot of subjects that are hidden away or have been hidden away, when you actually bring them out and talk about them. You generally find the reactions quite positive, you know. Yeah, that's fantastic.
Gary Johannes: Yeah, it's, I mean, sorry, I'm Gary as well. So nice to meet another Gary that we're apparently we're a rare breed.
Gary Johannes: Um, just like fine wines, we're rare. That's not what we
Gary Elbert: said.
Gary Johannes: So we're moving on from that. [00:10:00] Um, It's interesting what you said, mental health. I've been doing this for about 12 years. Um, and when you're talking about mental health 10, 12, 15 years ago, nobody had it. It was like, what is mental health? And there's been so much dialogue as Christopher was talking about using different platforms and different people.
Gary Johannes: But there's also a lot of role models who, you know, a lot of actors, a lot of entertainers, lots of sports people. Someone out talking about their mental health and how, you know, being in the limelight and that, and they've actually been good role models for other people to go, Oh, me too. And I get it. And if, if that person's able to talk about it.
Gary Johannes: But I've got to say, I can't think of anybody with a facial dis, you know, disfigurement. I've seen people who are disabled in wheelchairs or different things like that to get more profile. But I see you're [00:11:00] one of the few people that stood up above the parapet and that, I mean, for me, I found that fantastic, but how does, how do you take that step?
Gary Elbert: It's a good question, Gary. I did a master's in college last year and part of my research was looking into Why this particular minority group hasn't emerged in the same way as other minority groups have over the last 30 or 40 years. It's quite interesting when you think about oppression. The most successful oppression of a a person or of a group is when you never hear from those people.
Gary Elbert: You know, um, and who historically have been marginalized, uh, their, how they look has been weaponized against them, you know, um, for me to get from, from the place where I was to where I am now to being very open, openly discussing this. Um, I [00:12:00] think. I went back to college, education, reading, and I was always curious about it as an experience, as a lived experience for myself.
Gary Elbert: But then, as you rightly pointed out, you kind of realize, you know, you look around and you go, well, where is everybody else here? Why isn't there more people that are discussing it? Because in the UK and Ireland now, You've got diversity, equality, inclusion drives, but you have a minority group, and now there's a lot of research in the UK, a lot of very good groups in the UK, who are actually actively campaigning for, um, the rights of people who, with appearance differences, or as they say, for visible differences, and One of the problems has been, uh, there is for me myself, is the lack of first person narratives throughout history and even now, and probably going back to Chris's question, [00:13:00] you know, it's possible if you look at it in a kind of a skeptical, uh, or a cynical standpoint, even, that the, the, the even greater value placed on people's appearance makes it less likely for people like myself to, to speak out or to, um, not even speak out, that's not the wrong word, but just, uh, to be comfortable expressing themselves.
Gary Elbert: Um, and whatnot. So I hope that answers the
Gary Johannes: question. Yeah, it does. Um, and you know, there's, there's very few people to follow, particularly if you're one of the youngsters. Looking to, you know, somebody like me being successful, so, you know, There was
Gary Elbert: a very famous UK campaigner called James Partridge. And James Partridge was in a very serious car accident.
Gary Elbert: I think it was. Mid eighties or late eighties around that time. And he was left with very, very significant, um, scarring from the burns [00:14:00] and whatnot. And he set up, uh, I think it was the first charity, um, Around the centering on this topic called changing faces. And that was in the early nineties. He then went on to found a group called face equality internationally.
Gary Elbert: He's published a couple of books as well, but he's one of the very few. And it's, it's, he's one of the very few that's speaking about this topic, but also he's coming from a standpoint of an acquired facial
Gary Johannes: difference. Yeah. And you took the words, I mean, 'cause as you was saying that I was thinking about, and I'm sorry I can't remember her name.
Gary Johannes: The young lady who was, uh, acid attacked and she's on TV a lot. Um, Casey, Casey Piper, this Yes, that's right. Um, but again. Um, miserable, terrible, unfortunate, but it was acquired. And I go back to Simon Weston, who was burnt, terribly disfigured by burning when he was in the forces in the Falkland Islands, but that so much is about him being a veteran.
Gary Johannes: And, [00:15:00] and it, and it links to that too much. There's very few people who, uh, have birth defects, you know? So it is there, I guess, but again, I never connected the two.
Gary Elbert: Yeah, but, but you see, the point, the point I'm thinking about, Gary, when you talk about, say, less about, say, birth defects, but, uh, uh, significant appearance differences, or visible differences, as, uh, as the phrase, uh, is commonly used now.
Gary Elbert: You're talking about a lot of people. You're talking about you like, you like, one thing I've realized, like I did a, the biggest, uh, radio show in Ireland back in March where I discussed these topics. And, um, one of my, uh, friends who I, who I trained with sometimes and whatnot, um, he pointed out to me that, uh, he, he had issues because of his alopecia and, and that would technically be classed as a visible difference as well.
Gary Elbert: So when you talk about men's [00:16:00] health, you realize all of a sudden that like. There's a, there's a broader issue here around, uh, your appearance and how you look and there's a lot more than just the test, uh, this palette. But again, as you rightly say, there has been a lack of, it's, it's crazy to think about because appearance is so.
Gary Elbert: Valued and so it's a multi billion pound industry in terms of your appearance, you know, and yet we don't really talk about what you've made in terms of, um, the significance of it, you know, the hierarchy behind it as well, like, you know. Yeah,
Peter Ely: and I think when we do talk about it, it tends to be that it's done in kind of a jokey way.
Peter Ely: You're talking about alopecia there. I know when my when my cousin was losing his hair and was kind of going bald, it was all done in very much jokey fashion. It wasn't really done in that. caring type of way. So yeah, Gary, thank you. Um, that's a choice though, right? Gary, you choose to shave [00:17:00] that off. Yeah.
Peter Ely: Well,
Benn Baker-Pollard: you touched on a few bits there saying that, um, you know, it's difficult for people cause it's obviously in the industries like modeling and everything is at the forefront of that sort of world. Uh, and that's a big part to play. What, what would you say the impact is in terms of just someone like yourself going to get a job, how does that impact on your confidence?
Benn Baker-Pollard: And did you find any particular challenges, um, from COVID? Because I know obviously everybody's been isolated. Did that present a challenge for, for yourself or others that you know of, of coming back out into the community?
Gary Elbert: I, we actually had, had this discussion, uh, last week at the AGM. And, um, one of the ladies mentioned that the, she actually works in the, the camp clinic here in Arlington, Douglas, the main camp clinic, you know.
Gary Elbert: And she did say that some of the patients, the adult patients that were, uh, back in the clinic were [00:18:00] a little, um, upset that the masks were gone now, because when you put the mask on, and this applies to everybody, because I, I know from speaking to people that, um, it, it kind of alleviates any social Anxiety that you may have, you know, you feel like you're, it's a, there's a weird, it provided people with comfort, uh, in many respects, you know, and perhaps more so, um, in terms of say people with a cleft or with a, with a difference, uh, or a facial difference, what not, there was definitely, um, a transition period when the, when the height of the pandemic died down.
Gary Elbert: And I noticed to myself, Um, I, I just had to say to myself one day, I'm taking off the mask now, and that's it, you know, because there was, there's a weird type of comfort with wearing a mask. There really is. And there's some psychological, um, [00:19:00] repercussions of taking it off again. I, and, and I know of people, uh, with a path to felt more comfortable socially as a result of having the mask on.
Gary Elbert: Yeah.
Yeah.
Chris Johannes: You know, it's interesting the way you speak about it. I mean, you talk about it as facial differences, and this covers. As much or as little as you, as you, as you interpret that facial differences and you saying, talking about coat, the mask has actually reminded me, I have a friend, um, who's got, um, both his front teeth missing, um, been self conscious about it.
Chris Johannes: He, they were knocked out in an accident when he was a teenager, always been self conscious about it. Um, and having false teeth and things like that, he, it sticks out to him more than anybody else. And he was over COVID he really enjoyed wearing a mask and he told me that actually it's great wearing a mask because nobody knows and he got a job during COVID working in a supermarket.
Chris Johannes: Um, and when it came to the masks not being essential anymore, he was terrified. Nobody works with would ever seen him without that [00:20:00] mask on his face. And he was terrified of taking it off. You know, and nobody actually can now tell that he's got false teeth, really, you wouldn't know, but he knows. And the way you talk about just facial differences, it covers everything like that, you know, and the struggles that people go through.
Chris Johannes: And it's, it reminded me of that. And I just thought, actually, wow, yeah, there's more to this facial people having facial differences than there's immediately obvious. You know, and there should be more support for that, I think, actually.
Gary Elbert: Yeah, absolutely, Chris. Again, it feeds into a broader conversation where it's not just, like I said, the one in 700 people that are born with a cleft.
Gary Elbert: I mean, everybody, almost everybody has got some issue with their appearance in some way. You know, um, it's, it's, it's inbuilt into us. You know, like when, when we wake up every morning, we [00:21:00] appraise ourselves. We, we make ourselves presentable. Our appearance is worth spending time on, you know? So again, it feed into a broader conversation for sure.
Gary Elbert: Yeah. Yeah.
Chris Johannes: Do you think. As a man, there's a difference, but I mean, we talk, people are always talking about women's image, women's body image and the effects that, um, the struggles women go through comparing themselves to the latest magazines and things like that. But as a man, how did you find this?
Chris Johannes: Because we're deemed as these creatures who don't care about our appearance as much, aren't we? If you, if on a stereotype, we're deemed as creatures who don't. fuss about our appearance as much. We all know that's not true. We all do. But as a man, do you feel, how do you, how did you go through that through life?
Chris Johannes: You know, how did that affect you? The
Gary Elbert: answer to that, I'm certainly at a stage now where, um, the, the, uh, the aesthetic elements, I [00:22:00] mean, you know, I take care of myself, you know, and, uh, I, I train a lot and I, I work out a lot and I live a very healthy lifestyle. So I generally feel good. Um, Most of the time.
Gary Elbert: And that's really more important to me than how I look. Now I am in the process of, um, getting some orthodontic treatment and whatnot to improve, I suppose, uh, uh, aesthetically, uh, how I look, you know. So I'm getting a jaw surgery coming up now shortly. I'm probably going to get a rhinoplasty as well. We should be just trying to try and straighten out the nose somewhat and look if that feeds into something where you want to look, you want to look more normal, I suppose, but like, like, I really, I'll be honest with you, like, I just want to see one of the challenges having to connect is functionally, it can be difficult.
Gary Elbert: It can be difficult for people to speak. It can be difficult in terms of, um, just probably things that most people take for granted like, um, you know, it's [00:23:00] having, uh, like having a relaxed, uh, expression or whatnot because there is a bit of, uh, uh, discomfort there, you know, so, but in terms of Like, I've never looked at myself in the mirror and, like, hated myself or anything like that.
Gary Elbert: I've never, like, uh, got to that stage where I, like, I really hate how I look, you know, um, and that can be a challenge, obviously, for people with a facial difference, and that's, that's a trap you can most certainly fall into, you know, um, but certainly the last few years, Chris, um, I focus on self improvement, and I focus on trying to improve myself, and, like I say, I put peace a good bit, I train a good bit, I eat well, I eat healthy, and yeah, feeling good is, is, is more value than looking good, I think, you know.
Chris Johannes: I think that's a really important message actually.
Gary Johannes: I've got a question and I know the other two haven't really taken part much, [00:24:00] but your teenage years, how did you go through puberty and be 16 and 18 from a man's point of view, we again, Christopher said, women have all their own challenges, men don't necessarily present those challenges, even if they're there.
Gary Johannes: I don't understand how you would have gone through those times when your whole body's changing. We all found it a bit of a struggle. Oh yeah,
Gary Elbert: adolescence is a struggle for everybody, Kerry, absolutely, you know. Um, and again, you know, you throw, uh, uh, facial difference into puberty and whatnot. Absolutely, it's a challenge, of course.
Gary Elbert: What I ended up doing was I ended up kind of, uh Becoming the, the, the stereotypical, uh, teenage rebel, you know, and you start listening to, uh, [00:25:00] Nirvana and the Sex Pistols and punk rock and that type of stuff. And, uh, you're kind of rebelling against the work, you know, um, it's a standard adolescence move, but it's actually looking back at it.
Gary Elbert: It's quite adaptive as well. You know, you're trying to find your identity So I knew by like, I was like a straight A student. I was a good soccer player, I was good, I just loved sports and all that type of stuff, until about 16, 17. And then when adolescence hit then, I became, like I said, the, the, the rocker and the, the, the, the rebel.
Gary Elbert: And that's, looking back, I really, that's kind of probably what got through, got through adolescence. I have, I have met some great friends that are still my friends to this day, actually, you know. But no, it wasn't easy. Definitely wasn't easy at all. But, uh, yeah, I, I got through it. Brilliant. Excellent.
Peter Ely: And you, you've talked a little bit, you mentioned that at one of your [00:26:00] talks, the parents of, of children, um, with facial difference come and talk to you.
Peter Ely: What, what kind of advice do you give to them? Because I guess it must be difficult for them sometimes as well, because they're going to have those worries about how are their children going to cope and what's life going to be like for them. So what kind of advice do you give to those, to those parents?
Gary Elbert: The advice I give is the most um, standard, most obvious advice you can give. But like all the best teachers, there's a element of truth to it. Communicate. Communicate, communicate, communicate, communicate. If you have a kid that you're sending into school that is, looks different or is different in some way.
Gary Elbert: It's every parent's worst nightmare for that kid to be marginalized because of that difference, you know, it's just, you know, you don't want your kids coming home and, uh, being upset because somebody called them names or whatnot, or whatever the issue [00:27:00] may be has been weaponized against them, because we all know the playground can be a hard place to be, you know, um, and I do tell, uh, parents, and I know from speaking to parents last week that they, that they do this.
Gary Elbert: They basically empower their kids. If another kid says, Oh, what happened to your nose? Or what happened to your ear? Or what happened to your You want to get your kid to be able to tell them, neutrally. This is what happened. I was born, if you were an eight year old kid in the playground, oh, what happened to you?
Gary Elbert: I was born with a cleft palate. What's that? And then you tell them. That kid, that's the only approach, the best approach, but that needs the parents to be feeding into constant communication. And like, I suppose just looking at it for what it is, like, This could, this could become a monster within a person, you know, if it's not controlled and discussed and communicated, or it can be [00:28:00] minimized to affect the one that is a minor biological quirk, effectively, you know, and so that's your question, Peter.
Gary Elbert: Again, like I said, I got the best teachers. Communication, you know, and, and a strategy for communication as well, you know, preparing for those challenges that you are going to face when you're not going to be there and the kid is out in the playground or at the disco, whatever the case may be. Yeah.
Peter Ely: That's fantastic. And it's really lovely that you've, you, you look at it and you, you see it as a minor thing. And that's, that's really lovely because I imagine for some people it can be this, as you mentioned, this monster, and yet when you talked about it there, you said it was just kind of a minor thing.
Peter Ely: That's really lovely. It shows you've really got this handle on it. That's great. And I think Would you advise, what would be your advice to someone if they're thinking about surgery, should they do it, shouldn't they do it? What would your [00:29:00] advice be to people going down that route or going, struggling
Gary Elbert: with that question?
Gary Elbert: Surgery question is always interesting, you know, um, because if you're born with a facial difference of any kind, there probably is some sort of improvement that can be done. What's happened in Ireland and the UK, Um, is you're seeing now, um, adults returning back to the system in their forties and fifties.
Gary Elbert: after having left the system around adolescence. So if you're going back to say the 70s or 80s, um, and now they're returning back because they're curious now with the advances in, in, in, in medical science and medical skill and knowledge and whatnot, what can be done. Um, you know, I, I'm reluctant to give advice to people that I want to do, but I mean, if you're going back to, to, to get surgery, um, you know, it's like the bigger, question in terms of [00:30:00] disability overall and people that have disabilities where, you know, it's not that you need to be fixed or you need to be repaired in some way, you know, but if you can, if you get improvements in any way, um, and you feel like it would give you more confidence, then go for it.
Gary Elbert: Because I do know, um, and I have read stories from people on the different online forums and groups that they have gone in for surgery. And the outcome has given them more self esteem and more confidence in what matters, you know, so look, it's like anything Peter, there's, there's positives and there's negatives too, but I mean, if there is positives to be gained from it, I mean, why not go for it?
Gary Elbert: Yeah. It's a
Peter Ely: very good point. Um, does anybody else have a question that they'd like to ask of Gary? I was going to
Benn Baker-Pollard: say, Gary, you touching on sort of, you know, kids going through adolescence, going up in school. Do you think. We actually [00:31:00] teach enough about things like facial disfigurement. We talk about sex, we talk about race, we talk about religion.
Benn Baker-Pollard: Do we educate our children at the young enough age to respect people for things like facial disfigurement
Gary Elbert: even? I, I, I don't know, uh, because, um, I don't have kids and I don't have, um, direct access, uh, to, you know, education programs or whatnot, I would guess that we don't, uh, one of my best friends is a teacher and he would, he would tell me that this whole, this whole topic of appearance or whatnot is, is he is one of those ones where not enough people are effective for, for it to be, you know, like, uh, a mainstream talking point, you know, but there is, you know, everybody's affected by appearance, you know, but the, the question of appearance difference and a facial difference.
Gary Elbert: Um, again, it goes back to that, uh, you know, [00:32:00] the historically the lack of first person narratives. And, and again, like it's, it's, it's a group. And it's a group of people who are not really a group. So if you go back to the 60s and you had people of color taken to the streets in the UK, taken to the streets in America, demanding rights, um, after, you know, historical injustice, you know.
Gary Elbert: Then in the 70s, you have people of various disabilities. You have the feminist movement. You've got these big white groups all taken to the streets, all demanding rights. And that's really The genesis of the Equality Act that you have in the UK. We have the same Equality Act here. But one of the things I was always interested in the last couple of years is why haven't people with facial differences been included in this?
Gary Elbert: And you could say because we're not a group, because we don't identify as a group of people. That's possibly your reason [00:33:00] why, you know? Yeah. Off the back of that
Chris Johannes: question, Ben, and I'm talking for somebody who has got children, who are in school, I mean, they do cover Difference in appearances and things like that.
Chris Johannes: And I'm going to, I don't know, this may be a bit controversial, but actually I think something you said, Gary, there was, there's not, it doesn't affect enough people to warrant being in mainstream education. I actually agree. Actually, maybe it sounds a bit, I hope it doesn't sound disrespectful, but I actually agree.
Chris Johannes: Maybe there isn't enough people with specific differences and what do you call a specific difference? You know, but what, something you said earlier, I think is the most important thing and really powerful is that first pair of narrative. narrative coming from those children that are affected themselves.
Chris Johannes: They are the ones that should, that are educated. They're on the forefront. They're on that front line. So the parents, that advice you said you'd give to parents, I think is key. And I think that covers so much more than facial differences. It's [00:34:00] given that child the ability and information to be able to be the education behind it.
Chris Johannes: So when an eight year old child does ask what's wrong with you, they can say it. This is why I'm the way I am, and this is why, and this is what happens, and this is it. Without, and being confident enough to say, yeah, that's, that's the way it is, you know. I think that's how we, I think that's the best tool, and the most powerful thing that can come off the
Gary Elbert: back of
Gary Johannes: anything, you know.
Gary Johannes: Do, do you think the average parent, who's probably between 25 and 35, will know this? Wider gaps than that, but the average parent who's now probably a millennial has the courage to face up to that and educate their child. Because I see potentially a lot of parents going, Oh, don't talk about that. Don't [00:35:00] highlight yourself.
Gary Johannes: Don't stand out. Don't be a tall poppy because we're, you know, almost hiding from the truth. And we hear people that, you know, telling. People that, you know, such and such has happened and they're not, you know, I've always been very open and honest about everything. This is what things are. I don't think all parents were able to be.
Gary Johannes: This is the way it is. This is why you're like you are. That's fact to give that courage and that strength and that understanding to the child, that education of fact. I think there's a lot of hiding. behind fear of judgment, of impairments, not the child. I also
Gary Elbert: think there's a big, I agree
Benn Baker-Pollard: with all of that, Gary, but I think there's also a massive lack as well.
Benn Baker-Pollard: You know, I see some really venomous stuff. And on social media in community groups and people are posting genuine questions, but then that [00:36:00] individual gets attacked and destroyed for perhaps how they look in their picture or that they can't speak English properly and they misspell things. And actually it's a pylon and people get attacked for that rather than actually society doing what we should always do and look after each other and have respect for each other and help each other along the way.
Benn Baker-Pollard: Um, and so I think the parents. As much as in, in the children that you're talking about, Gary, and the parents that you've met at school are obviously aware of that because of their children having some form of disfigurement. I think there's a lot of parents, a lot of arrogance and ignorance around it from the broader community who would probably just use it to abuse.
Benn Baker-Pollard: And maybe not tell their kids the right way to interact.
Gary Elbert: Absolutely, Ben. But let me give you an example. I just thought of something there while you were speaking. You've got the heavyweight boxing champion Tyson Fury. A [00:37:00] man who claims he's a religious man.
Gary Johannes: Very religious.
Gary Elbert: He claims he's very religious, Gary.
Gary Elbert: Now, just put this into perspective, okay? One of his favorite tactics, I don't know if you follow boxing, but, uh, he, people want him to fight this Ukrainian guy, Usyk, you know, and it's been rumbling on for a while. We all want it to happen. But one of his favorite tactics, his terms of abuse was Usyk. He calls him a gap tooted effer, you ugly gap tooted effer.
Gary Elbert: Um, and now can imagine if he had targeted Usyk based on the color of his skin. Or a man who's based on, um, his ethnicity or his nationality or whatnot, or if it was a kind of a genuine disability, obviously it's unlikely to be a boxing champion, but, uh, it's somehow normalized, you know, and I always, I, I know combat sports and whatnot, but I use that example [00:38:00] as the, as a good example, I think of this normalization of weaponizing people's appearance, you know, and getting away with it and the same guy, you Well.
Gary Elbert: Beyond social media following day praising God, you know, like the normalization of nastiness towards people because of how they look, what a horrible, horrible example he is, except for kids,
Gary Johannes: you know. That's, that's amazing. And I get it. And it's interesting because now if you fat shame someone, you're bad.
Gary Johannes: And actually. of somebody who's extremely overweight myself. And I know that it does. When somebody was to fact shame me, Ben, Christopher, Peter, be quiet. If somebody, It's not pretty big, Gary. See, see what I mean? Well, actually, it's the truth. And actually, my health will suffer because of it. You know, and I have a choice.
Gary Johannes: What I put into my [00:39:00] body. You're very healthy. You're very fit. And that's a choice. But actually, if I've got gappy teeth or I've got no hair, that's not a choice. But now if somebody abuses my, my size or my sexuality or my color, and we in front, we had a guest on recently, um, a guy called G and he said that he's had lots of issues with, with his color.
Gary Johannes: Um, but that was obvious. So people could see that. So there was either thing, but actually. Most of the issues in all countries are the things which you don't see, like sexuality or feminism. But I see your facial challenges, differences, are obvious and nobody, and I've never thought in that way. So again, every single podcast, it's just, oh my God.
Gary Johannes: Another bell just rang.
Gary Elbert: Yeah, but you know, Gary, like, like, what I'm interested in, right, [00:40:00] is, as a, as a, as a student of sociology, is how can we improve our societies? How can we advance our societies, you know? And it just blows my mind that in 2023, a person can go on to the social media, abuse somebody because of a, a 2mm gap in his front teeth.
Gary Elbert: And that's just normal, you know, it's kind of mind blowing to think about like where we are collectively as a human species that we still just turn a blind eye to weaponizing people's, people's, uh, genetic based appearances, you know.
Gary Johannes: It's interesting because I love my boxing and sports too. And. If he'd abused you, who clearly got something which is genetically there, you've got cleft palate, I would have said that's wrong.
Gary Elbert: Of course, he wouldn't have done that. No, [00:41:00]
Gary Johannes: but somebody like me, you know, oi baldy, and everybody calls me that, you know, that's fine. And, you know, gappy teeth, that's fine. Bugs bunny, whatever. And it's interesting, how far do you have to be down that spectrum? For it to go from that's fair game because you look a bit funny to can't say that because that's a, you know, that's inappropriate.
Chris Johannes: It's interesting you say that because there's a big thing that I see a lot on social media and it kind of rings a little bit to me. I mean, I'm five foot six. I'm not the shortest guy, but I'm certainly not the tallest guy, you know, and it's something that I'm in the past has sometimes bothered me and.
Chris Johannes: Particularly on things like dating sites. This is quite being brought up quite a lot now on social media. Women seem to be allowed to have this preference of putting on their dating profiles. Guys over six foot only, you [00:42:00] know, and having those preferences and that's, you know, fine. That's okay. But something you said actually made me think if a man was to put on there, um, no women over a size 14, they'd be uproar.
Gary Elbert: You know, Yeah. There is some, there's some clear inconsistencies there, Chris, when you look at it, there really is, um, and it is interesting, like I say, when you talk about appearance, uh, Gary mentioned the waist, you mentioned the height, um, uh, many, many men are struggling with all these different issues, you know, and they're all intrinsically related to appearance, you know, but there's, there's, there's, there's a lot of, uh, moral inconsistencies overall there is, yeah.
Gary Johannes: Yeah.
Chris Johannes: Sorry, one question. Because I think we're coming to the end there, um, one thing that I really want to know, Gary, is you talk really well about this as, you know, [00:43:00] was it through your life, that inspired you to be okay with you?
Gary Elbert: Not a lot, Chris. In my early thirties, I took up martial arts. And I competed in kickboxing.
Gary Elbert: I had about 25 or 35 fights of kickboxing. I was saying to a friend of mine the last day, it's given me a deep confidence. To this day, that I probably have for the rest of my life, you know, because having the cleft, the eyebrows would be raised about competing in a kickboxing ring, you know, and I had to overcome that myself and I overcame it, you know, that coincided, coincided rather with going back to college.
Gary Elbert: And then really driven down into these issues that that a little bit more, you know, and as a result, I stopped competing in martial arts. I got into endurance running and ultra running now as well. But, um, I just training and competing, I discovered a lot [00:44:00] more. potential about myself in myself as a result.
Gary Elbert: And it gives you more perspective, you know, overall. Um, and look, it doesn't matter who you are, uh, education, physical fitness, you know, reading good books, uh, looking after yourself. That's the foundation to a half decent life, you know, in my opinion, anyway. So that's, that's the background to where, to where I am, where I am now.
Gary Elbert: And I always say to people that I'm not the finished article. It's not like, it's not like a linear straight line from A to B here. There's a lot of things to work on still, you know, but, um, am I better than I was 10 years ago? Yeah, most certainly. Yeah, that's
Chris Johannes: amazing. It makes me think of Cobra Kai. Have you seen it, Gary?
Gary Elbert: Yeah, yeah. I
Gary Johannes: just go down the road to Inspired Martial Arts and see it.
Gary Elbert: Gary, did you want
Gary Johannes: one last question, Gary? Well, I'm just saying. He
Gary Elbert: loves to [00:45:00] hug it, Peter. Behave
Gary Johannes: yourself. I was just going to pay Gary, because he's got such a good name, another compliment, you know. Um, he spells it properly. It's none of that chihuahua rubbish, you know.
Gary Johannes: Um. It's just like, what I'm hearing is your, your facial situation doesn't define you. No, it
Gary Elbert: certainly doesn't define me, Gary. It's part of who I am. It will always be part of who I am. Yeah. But, um, I'm going over to Barcelona next week for a 12 hour race, um, on the track. And, uh, I'm going over there to compete.
Gary Elbert: Yeah. I'm going over there to try and win the race, you know. And, uh, It doesn't make a blind bit of difference how I look when, when that race begins, you know? And when I do plenty of other things. I mean, it is certainly part of my life. It's, uh, it's, it's, uh, it's a unique experience, that's for sure. But, uh, it doesn't define me at all.
Gary Elbert: No.
Peter Ely: Brilliant. That's amazing. Gary, thank you [00:46:00] so much for being a guest on the show. Before we leave. Is there any kind of place that people can reach out if they want to book you for talks or have you got any kind of, uh, advice for places that parents could go if they want to get more information? Is there anything that you kind of, websites, resources?
Gary Elbert: Peter, I'm, I'm in the process of, uh, starting a charity here in Ireland called Visible Difference Ireland, and we're waiting on approval from the, uh, charity regulators. My intention is, uh, if we get the approval, um, that will apply for funding. We'll get a website up and running. We'll, we'll get a podcast up and going.
Gary Elbert: There's some amazing people actually in the UK I would love to talk to. Um, about these, about these general issues that we discussed, so that's in the pipeline, um, but at the moment, I mean, if anyone's listening and they want me to, to get in contact, I'll leave my email address for yourselves and you can, you can pass it on.
Gary Elbert: Yeah.
Peter Ely: Fantastic. That's great. Gary, [00:47:00] thank you so much for your time. It's been a genuine pleasure and, um, really, really inspiring to, to listen to you and your journey. Um, so thank you for your time. Take care and goodbye. James, do you want to say
Gary Elbert: goodbye? Thanks Gary, really appreciate you coming on
Benn Baker-Pollard: the show man.
Benn Baker-Pollard: Best of luck in your race in
Gary Elbert: Barcelona. Yeah,
Gary Johannes: thanks a lot for, again, such an inspiring, um, understanding of what you are and who you
Gary Elbert: are. It's been really, really great hearing you Gary. Um, yeah, hope we
Chris Johannes: meet each other again soon.
Gary Elbert: for
Gary Johannes: listening to the podcast that proves men do talk.
Gary Elbert: If you would like more information
Benn Baker-Pollard: or support, then please visit inspired to change.
Peter Ely: biz where you can learn more about us and the Inspired to Change team.
Chris Johannes: And remember, the conversation continues on our social media, Inspired
Gary Elbert: Mentor.[00:48:00]
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