Breaking the Stigma: Men's Mental Health and More | Inspired Men Talk with Claire Noyelle
So hello and welcome to another episode of Inspired Men Talk. And today, we're incredibly lucky to have, a wonderful guest, Claire Noyell, who is a, a fellow hypnotherapist, but also a pharmacist. So Claire, tell us a little bit about yourself.
Claire Noyelle:Hello. It's really nice to be here actually, having listened to all the podcasts, proper fan, so it's nice to actually be included particularly as I'm a girl on a men's podcast. So as you introduce me, I am a Solution Focused Hypnotherapist but I started my working life as a Pharmacist. I've been a Pharmacist for 30 something years working in community pharmacy, you know, the kind of place where you pop in to get your prescriptions and buy your hairspray and all that kind of thing. So that I did for many many years and got a little bit disillusioned with it, I felt like I was seeing the same people over and over again and they weren't getting anywhere.
Claire Noyelle:So through a series of random kind of coincidences I ended up doing Solution Focused Chitman Therapy course and realized that the work I was doing with my clients, even as a student, was probably making more of a difference with some of the issues I was working with than the pharmacy stuff. So gradually switched over my working week to more hypnotherapy and less pharmacy, but I still do one day a week in a nice little community pharmacy near Bayou.
Peter Ely:Lovely. Now when I was growing up, madness did a song called House of Fun. And there, that was all about, boys or young lads turning 16, going into the pharmacy to buy condoms. And it was a very kind of, you know, big thing, and it was a very difficult thing, certainly grown up now. And now we know that it's a lot easier to buy those products.
Peter Ely:There's a lot more places that you can get them, but has that changed in the pharmacy industry? So do men, when they're coming in to buy men's products or any kind of thing, has that kind of embarrassment thing changed? Is it still the same? What have you noticed as your time?
Claire Noyelle:I think there is still a level of embarrassment about something. So for example, we now sell Viagra over the counter, it's a different dose to the one you can get on prescription, but the idea is to open up access to men experiencing those kind of problems with Erectile Dysfunction. But clearly, because it's quite potent stuff, I need to ask a few questions about it and they don't want to answer. And I have a suspicion that talking to a female pharmacist they'll walk in, see me and go oh dear me, no and they'll go and come back another day when my boss is in because he's a man and that's an easier thing for them to get their heads around potentially. That's not true on a cross the board though to be fair, there are some people who will be a little bit more open to it and I don't know if that's a confidence thing or an embarrassment thing or a desperation thing, but they will actually suck it up and come and talk to me.
Claire Noyelle:Yeah.
Peter Ely:I know from my experience, kind of the purchasing of the condoms was a bad thing, and then I've got got got better as I've got a bit older. But what about the other chaps here? Gary, what about yourself? When you go into the pharmacy, is there stuff that you kind of feel a bit awkward talking about or anything like that?
Gary Johannes:No. I think, interestingly, I come from a huge family, and I've got 5 sisters as well as brothers. So it very quickly, whatever was happening, everybody knew. So we didn't have that same sense of pride, or the same sense of, vulnerability or whatever we might call it. So I don't think I ever had a problem with anything like that.
Gary Johannes:But it was very I mean, even all the jokes on television was about, you know, not, you know, going into the pharmacist and buying something completely different. They've made films, sketches about it. So, but I've got another question, but actually, it's for Peter, not for Claire. When Madness played on the roof of Buckingham Palace, did they play that song?
Peter Ely:Oh, I don't know. I didn't see him do it.
Gary Johannes:Because I, you know, I just thought that would be, playing a song about the house of fun, but it meaning something different would have been completely, how many people would have caught up on the pun?
Peter Ely:I mean, if Prince Andrew was there probably. But anyway
Gary Johannes:Well, I stopped. Stop. Stop. No. What so no.
Gary Johannes:I didn't.
Peter Ely:Okay. And what about yourself, Chris? Did you, do you, have you had any kind of when you go to the pharmacy, have you had any issues where you've had kind of you feel uncomfortable talking about what's going on?
Chris Johannes:Personally, no. And, I mean, I would actually feel a bit different to the way Claire's describing it. And I don't know if maybe you see a little bit of this as well, Claire, Particularly if I was ever in the need to buy something like Viagra or anything like that. I don't know if I would feel better talking to another bloke about it or maybe a woman, actually. I would probably think that a woman would be easy to talk to.
Chris Johannes:I don't know if there's this if I talk to a bloke about it, he knows that I'm struggling or something, and, you know, that the where would where was the banter begin? And is is that bit more of a damaging thing with your pride? Whereas I think a woman I would feel a woman would be more empathetic and understanding.
Claire Noyelle:No. I would say there's probably an age difference. I would, you know, obviously, there's there's no age limit on who might need something, some support with, something like biocrite, but I do find that maybe younger guys are more willing to talk about it and I hadn't thought about it from that perspective Chris, so that may be why. But I still feel like we don't sell as much as we ought to given the need that I know statistically is out there. So I imagine there's a fair few people that don't want to buy it over the counter, that don't want to have that conversation for all the reasons that you've maybe mentioned, embarrassment or shame or some kind of link to their manliness and would rather buy something off label over the internet so they don't have to have that interaction.
Claire Noyelle:I suspect there's a fair bit that that goes on, which is a shame because it may not be what they're what they're looking for. It may not be exactly what they've ordered.
Peter Ely:And, Ben, what are your thoughts? Have you ever had that situation where you've gone into the pharmacy and you've kind of felt a bit of embarrassment about anything that you've had to do or, you know, is it different for you coming from the the gay perspective? Is that, is there a different kind of thing there?
Benn Baker-Pollard:So I think that for me, no, but I think it potentially does come from the gay world because there's a bigger emphasis, I feel, that on your sexual health and getting screened and everything else. And if you ever go to a a gum clinic and have a go through that questionnaire with someone from a gay world. The questions you get asked cover a whole range of actions and community that probably go far deeper than people's minds can even imagine, if you're not aware of the layers of our community and the different types of scenes that are available to it and, you know, from anything from chem sex to, other sports. Going to buy a pack of condoms after you first experience that for the first time is like going to the shop to buy pick and mix. It's not really an issue.
Benn Baker-Pollard:And, you know, it's never been an issue. So but then, again, I've never been and bought some because you get them all free when you go to the clinic.
Gary Johannes:Wow. So you're a cheapskate?
Benn Baker-Pollard:You know, you get you get them free. Why not?
Chris Johannes:I mean, I've never had to buy them. It is like you say, so our generation is is been more available.
Gary Johannes:You've got 3 children.
Claire Noyelle:Yeah. Maybe you
Gary Johannes:should have maybe you should have bought them.
Benn Baker-Pollard:He's probably generational as well because I think it's the younger generation now go to clinics freely, like, without it being a big deal. Where I think out for the older generation, that would still be a really uncomfortable experience. And I I always remember when I worked at Sainsbury's and, we are every year the Christmas hour comes in and there's always guarantee at some Christmas box of Durex that's stacked
Gary Johannes:the hills with something I haven't noticed that.
Benn Baker-Pollard:As a present. It'll be there somewhere on the aisle. And there was always someone who we used to sort of make the fun of as was always sort of the shagger of the the team. So I remember picking a box of those up and taking them to the till as a joke present for Secret Santa, and the older lady on the checkout was mortified. Absolutely mortified as I put this massive box of Venet.
Benn Baker-Pollard:And she goes, my god. What you doing with all them gazongas? And I it's like gazongas. Is that what you call them? It's like but, yeah, she was, horrified that I was buying them.
Benn Baker-Pollard:So I think Generation is a big player in it.
Gary Johannes:I think I think they used to be called, Jo Joermanos or something like that, and you just have to wash them out after use.
Benn Baker-Pollard:I mean, that's showing your age, Gary.
Gary Johannes:That is
Claire Noyelle:It's not that much. Yeah.
Benn Baker-Pollard:Not showing your age.
Gary Johannes:Yeah. No. I'm not sure if there was ever any sexual health value to them at all.
Claire Noyelle:No. I think I think that's a good point. That awareness of sexual health is probably higher amongst younger people because I've noticed that the younger generations are quite happy to come in with their wives and partners and girlfriends and ask for stuff like the morning after pill which traditionally they would have hidden around the corner and not got involved in that, but I noticed there's more of an awareness there, which is quite nice. But I think I think Peter's right. It is quite a generational thing.
Gary Johannes:That that's just made me think of a completely different question, which I'd never thought I, you know, I I would have thought of. Do you think men are taking more responsibility when it comes from pregnancy point of view? So condoms is a man's responsibility in in a way to make sure everybody's safe and they're not getting people pregnant. The morning after pill, it wasn't available in my years and when I was in that sort of age group. Now you can, you know, if you feel you need 1, you can go get one apparently.
Gary Johannes:But do you think that was always a girl's problem? If you get pregnant, that's your issue. Yeah. Like, you should have took the pill you've I
Claire Noyelle:think there is there's not a partnership I'm seeing, certainly with youngsters, and I'm talking like under 18 when I say youngsters, so when they come in it's not uncommon for their other half to come in with them.
Gary Johannes:Wow.
Claire Noyelle:Which which is nice, I've never I've never seen that with older women coming in because, you know, again it's not age restricted. If you're able to get pregnant, you're able to buy the morning after pill. So I would say I think boys are probably trying to take more responsibility, but to be fair to them they are quite limited in what they can do. There is no male contraceptive tablet as yet, so there's a limit as to what they can be responsible for.
Gary Johannes:No. But they they know what they well, they know what the they should know the consequences of their actions. And it used to be There's
Claire Noyelle:an awareness there's an awareness of that as a possibility. Whereas before, it was, as you say, very much, well, you go and get something, love.
Gary Johannes:Yeah. Well, it it was a case of I don't have to look after myself. If you get pregnant, that's your responsibility. You need to protect yourself. I don't have to.
Gary Johannes:And maybe that's a really old fashioned idea, but hearing the fact that there was young men going in and supporting their partner, they've made a mistake. They've done a joint mistake, you know, and they've gone in and both held up their hands and said, can you help us? That's that's really good news from my point of view. I think that never would have happened.
Claire Noyelle:It always makes me smile and not least because it gives me the chance to do my auntie Claire bit and just have a chat to them about sexual health and stuff generally because that's a big deal and I don't think schools teach it in the same way that they probably need it to land, it's a bit embarrassing. So yeah, I do my auntie play a bit and talk about, you know, what to do next. As Ben said, go to the gum clinic. Look at your other options. A little bit more educational awareness.
Claire Noyelle:So every book
Gary Johannes:Did did you just call it a gum clinic?
Claire Noyelle:Mhmm. Genatome, urinary medicine.
Gary Johannes:So again, I've I've never heard that. So so a gum clinic is where we used to call the clap clinic.
Claire Noyelle:Yes. Let's call it a sexual health clinic, shall we? Let's
Gary Johannes:use it. Yeah. No. No. That's what I'm saying.
Gary Johannes:I so I've never heard that term. So Yeah. I wouldn't know. Okay. Thank you.
Chris Johannes:Interesting because you mentioned, education in schools, and I always thought I was awful. It was embarrassing being there. But, actually, while I was talking here, me and Ben obviously had, those barriers broken down a little bit more because we went through a lot of that at school. Whereas then Gary's generation, even Peter's generation perhaps didn't get those barriers knocked down at such a young age. Because like you said, I will go to the sexual health clinic and get tested without even batting an eyelid if I think it's necessary.
Chris Johannes:You know? I will go and buy whatever I need to from the pharmacist without worrying about it. And I think that's a credit to even though it was cringey and it did make you giggle and make everybody feel silly, it clearly did something because you're now starting to see those effects coming through.
Claire Noyelle:Yeah. Really important.
Peter Ely:Yeah. And it it was definitely different for me. So, yeah, I I definitely didn't like talking about sex at all. It was a dirty word, and I think we we covered it in a conversation once before on here.
Benn Baker-Pollard:It was a real taboo, and yet it's what everybody's doing. It's it's it made no sense, but it was this sort of perception that it was wrong if you mentioned it in public. We don't talk about that. You're on mute, darling.
Claire Noyelle:That applies to that applies to lots of different forms of health, doesn't it? I think sexual health is a big one. But I think it applies equally to mental health, and that's why I love the fact that you got been doing the podcast because that's very much changed. And there are lots of elements to mental and physical health that are inextricably linked. You can't be physically healthy without being mentally healthy.
Claire Noyelle:So I think it's it's, a a a real misunderstanding to think about those 2 as separate issues.
Gary Johannes:No. But I thought when people are mentally unwell, they're more likely to not look after themselves and not take responsibility for their sexual health and their sexual activities as well. So there is a link, but there's also a negative link if they're not careful as well. So that education, what Christopher was talking about, is helpful. But actually, how easy is it to get support?
Claire Noyelle:Well, that's the frustrating thing. And I'm very lucky that the pharmacy I work in, he is particularly help, happy for me to talk about what I do. My leaflets are openly on display so that if somebody comes in looking for mental health support, I know full well there are limits as to what the NHS will provide. There's, you may have heard of Ayesha which is, the online support one, you've got various kind of self referral links there but they take ages to actually access. If people are looking for mental health support here and now there's a limit as to what I can refer them onto.
Claire Noyelle:I can give them phone numbers and I can tell them how to get help but unless they are immediately in crisis there's a limit to the amount of effective support they'll get. So I love the fact that my boss is happy for me to go well, actually stepping out of my pharmacy world and into my hypnotherapy world, that's something I can support you with. Let's let's have a chat.
Gary Johannes:But why doesn't the pharmacy support it?
Claire Noyelle:Because there's nothing to support them with. Well, I can give them information, the signposting thing that you you do. I can send them to back to the GP but I know 70 odd percent, I forget the actual stats, but some 70% of appointments at the GP are actually to do with mental health rather than physical health because that's your first point of contact. I can't refer anyone on directly to the mental health team, there's no pathway for that.
Chris Johannes:Wow. As the pharmacist, I, you guys handle the medication for people who are on antidepressants in any form. How do you, although you can't prescribe them directly, what support can you offer to people who are already on antidepressants, but maybe struggling still? I mean, what what was does that conversation go like?
Claire Noyelle:That's really interesting because this is where being a hypnotherapist is is really helpful, and the two worlds collide really nicely. As a Pharmacist I tell people what they, what they can expect from taking their medications, you know they might make you feel a bit sick, they might you feel a bit sleepy, but keep taking them. That's standard advice that a Pharmacist will give you if it's not working in 3 weeks have a chat to the GP. But as a Hypnotherapist I tend to go a step further and talk about some of the actions that people can take that will make their antidepressants work better. So on your podcast you talked about the importance of interactions, I've talked about doing stuff, but there's all sorts of things that we talk about as therapists that are likely to make people's antidepressants work better, so there's a definite bit where those two worlds mesh and we can support people in a much more effective way, so that's really nice.
Peter Ely:So with with prescriptions, I have a friend and he's an account manager for a number of pharmacies, and he has said that, you know, when I was growing up, the front of the pharmacy used to be the major part where you'd sell your toothpaste and all your other little bits and the combs that you'd buy instead of condoms. But he said now it's changed, and the fronts of the shops are getting so much smaller because they're seeing an increase in prescriptions. Have you noticed that we've had more prescriptions recently, is it and is that mental health related do you think?
Claire Noyelle:Oh yeah, definitely. So you may have come across the the drug Sertraline, it's one of the most prescribed in the UK and I think it takes up about 40% of the budget for antidepressants, it's really widely prescribed and antidepressants make up a huge chunk of medication generally. So yes, definitely an uptick in the numbers of prescriptions supplied for that particularly over Covid, I think that changed the landscape, people that were struggling before were probably struggling a little bit more then and so prescriptions went up. But unfortunately for the NHS the cost of that has also gone up, it's it's quadrupled in that last 5 years or so. So the budget that the NHS is having to spend on medication to support people who are depressed or struggling with mental health problems is taking up an ever increasing chunk of their budget.
Claire Noyelle:It's it's getting to be a big problem I think, and while the pharmacies have been given permission recently, there's a whole new programme you guys may have come across at Pharmacy First, where you can walk up to the pharmacy if you've got a sore throat or if you, not you guys, but the girls can go if they've got a urinary infection, children can go if they, well not on their own but with parents, if they've got an ear infection. There are conditions that we can now supply medication for. Mental health is not on that list, and there's an argument that maybe with some adequate training it should be because pharmacists are a really nice easy port of call, there's one on every single high street in every village in this country. And I feel like while they're happy to use us to prescribe antidepressants, antibiotics, the need and the, the kind of drive for us to support with antidepressants and mental health isn't being recognised. I mean don't get me wrong, we're busy people, there's a lot of stuff going on in your pharmacy, but if you're going to want us to support people's health, I would love to see mental health on that list too.
Chris Johannes:Absolutely. I was wondering, when you're talking about the difference, when you're talking about the antidepressants and the there's a there's a bit of support you can get. Do you find, as we talk about men's men's health, do you find that men come to get, things like that, checks, just as much as women, or is there a difference? Or, you know, what happens there?
Claire Noyelle:No. I don't think they're as open to having the conversation because quite often if I've got time I'll give someone their prescription and go, you know, here's your medication, they're giving you 2 months worth, how's that working for you? Which again I think as a Pharmacist I'm unusual in that, most people are just kind of like back on me there. I will ask people how are you doing with that? Because I'm quite comfortable talking about people's mental health, within a way that I think a lot of people are a bit scared of opening that conversation, but most blokes are like yes fine, bye.
Claire Noyelle:There's not the willingness whereas some of them women might go well it's kind of okay but I'm struggling with this it's not really doing that so we'll have a conversation I'll send them back to to have that reassessed. But I do see people buying over the counter meds for sleep stuff which is, as you all know, is often a big mark of someone's mental health not being where it should be, or sleep is, is definitely something that predicts or is part of poor mental health.
Peter Ely:But it's really interesting about that whole men not talking about the how the prescription is going. Because when I was growing up, and I don't know if it's true for Gary, my perception was if you needed to talk about your medication, you went to your GP. You just collected it from your pharmacist. It was kind of like your Amazon delivery point almost.
Claire Noyelle:Yeah.
Peter Ely:So so that's so basically that's changed now. Right? So I guess through through training, there's a lot more availability to talk to your pharmacists now.
Claire Noyelle:You don't need an appointment for us do you? You can just walk in, hang around, you know, you can go look at the cottonwood or you can go rummage through suntan lotions for 5 seconds until you pluck up the courage or there's no one else in the shop, and then you can have a conversation with us, we are easy available, we're easy to find and we don't need an appointment to go, by the way, while I'm here buying this paracetamol, can you tell me about this? That's possible in a way that making an appointment with your GP is just not.
Peter Ely:Yeah. I think
Claire Noyelle:that's a limited what we can do.
Benn Baker-Pollard:I think that's an interesting point that Peter makes is, it's changed. I'm not sure it has. Is it clear? I think I think that pharmacists have always been trained to do all of that. I just think it's the the position of it and the marketing around it has changed.
Benn Baker-Pollard:But I think people really underestimate what pharmacists can do and their skill set.
Claire Noyelle:Yeah. I think so. I mean, the the vast majority of pharmacists don't prescribe. My boss there is is unusual. He runs a separate prescribing clinic which means that he can write prescriptions and give different things.
Claire Noyelle:There's a limit as to what I personally can supply without a prescription. That's a slight difference. But Ben's right. We've always had the knowledge to give advice on medication. That is our primary role as I see it, preventative and supportive health care.
Claire Noyelle:Helping people to make the most of their medications. What's the point in a medicine if you don't know how to take it? It? If it's not working for you, then it needs changing. If it's working for you but giving you side effects, it needs changing and that's the point that pharmacists are, you know, in their little box, definitely able to do, but it would be really nice to think we would work better alongside GP's because I think they don't make the most of us as professional.
Gary Johannes:I've got a slightly different opinion, and it might be through lack of experience because I can't remember the last time I needed to go to the pharmacy, you know, apart from collecting my regular yeah. Plugs. But when I used to go there, the person on the front counter behaved like a gatekeeper. I guess emails the the prescription to the doctors, and the doctor the the chemist then delivers it. So I don't even know if I've got a pharmacy.
Gary Johannes:It comes from I know where the local pharmacy is, but I've never been in there. I spoke to on the phone. That was it.
Claire Noyelle:No. There's a there's a whole load of online pharmacies. A lot of them are off they're off the high street in a warehouse somewhere. Your prescription gets sent there electronically. There's minimal input from a pharmacist other than checking the accuracy of what comes out.
Gary Johannes:But that's basically what I've got. Even though I know where the pharmacy is, they might be further handling it to somebody else.
Claire Noyelle:Yeah. I don't know. Miss out on that interaction. I mean, maybe you personally don't need it, but older people, someone will go to you, you know, you're not looking quite so well at the Is everything okay? Can I help you with anything?
Gary Johannes:This is why I'm waiting for
Claire Noyelle:the need to see of us.
Gary Johannes:This is why I'm waiting for a jive from somebody else when you said older people. No. But I'm quite lucky I got away with that.
Peter Ely:We knew you'd pick up on it on yourself, Gary, so that was fine. And you you touch a little bit there, Claire, on on the delivery side of, like, the legitimate, pharmaceutical stuff. But what about then, you know, there's a lot of black market drugs available now over there as well.
Claire Noyelle:Shockingly, it's actually quite easy to get hold of medication without a prescription. I've seen, just especially just before COVID and during Covid, I've seen adverts on Facebook, not adverts, but posts on Facebook and community groups, if anybody wants some pregabalin I've got some, if anybody wants some diazepam I've got some. Those are anti anxiety meds, and there's no other way they should be given to people without a prescription and a proper hardcore conversation with your GP about what you're doing, But they're disturbingly easy to track down if you're happy to take something and not ask too many questions.
Peter Ely:And and if you're a member of parliament, you sometimes just give them to your kids. Yeah.
Gary Johannes:So do you I clearly missed that one, but it's,
Peter Ely:I think I can't remember
Benn Baker-Pollard:what she's helped. Out today, Pete, aren't you?
Peter Ely:Well, I can't remember if she was the health secretary or not or something. I can't remember what
Chris Johannes:it was.
Peter Ely:But, yeah,
Claire Noyelle:she was someone who should know better. Yes.
Peter Ely:Yeah. And she she she basically said she was giving her her prescription stuff to one of her kids or one of her friends or something. Yeah.
Gary Johannes:But but I know someone who's who gets extra, extra, migraine pills on the Internet. Mhmm. They get their issue from the GP, but they they haven't been able to get into the GP, haven't been listened to for a number of years. It's just like, yeah. And and they don't there's no checkup.
Gary Johannes:There's no follow-up. And they have to have them because they suffer so badly.
Claire Noyelle:But the flip side of that is that what's prompting those migraines? Why is she having more of them than usual? Is it to do with the level of stress or overwhelm or something else that's going on that someone should be getting involved in and going, well, hang on a minute. You seem to be this has got worse for you. What's precipitating all this?
Claire Noyelle:That could well have links to a mental health condition, and it needs looking rather
Gary Johannes:than Now it's easier to just go online.
Claire Noyelle:Sadly, yes. And I think that's where you miss out that personal touch. That somebody being involved and going, is everything okay? And I think that's particularly important as we've said a couple of times for people who won't bring that up themselves.
Chris Johannes:I think if you pay your
Claire Noyelle:somebody's searching. You got someone lurking in the pharmacy and you can sense they kinda wanna ask a question, but they won't come up to the counter. Is everything alright? Did you want us did you want something?
Chris Johannes:I mean, I think the way you're talking about it, Claire, it would be fantastic. But I think there's a lot of people, self included, who haven't had those best experiences. Like, you say you go to the GP or, your pharmacy and you're with these issues and wanting somebody to look at you a bit more, and they just don't. They, however, haven't got the time, or they're under too much pressure, or they from a personal statement, they may see you as another person just complaining, and they just need they just haven't got the time for it. You know?
Chris Johannes:And we don't I think there's
Gary Johannes:a lot of people out
Chris Johannes:there who will share those experiences, and it almost does break down that trust, doesn't it? I mean, I mean, it'd be great if everybody had a pharmacist like you on their corner, but, unfortunately, that's just not the case. And, certainly, when you get to the GP, they do miss a lot. You know? They haven't got the time to look into deeper, and certainly, you don't have the same one twice.
Claire Noyelle:Absolutely. I'm I'm very lucky because I started my whole pharmacy career in a teeny tiny pharmacy as a Saturday kid with an old school pharmacist complete with white coat who knew everyone that came through his door. And that's how community pharmacy has always felt to me. So even though I work for some of the bigger companies like Boots or Local To Me Padence, I still managed to hang on to that kind of community feel because they were in little high streets in towns. You go to a pharmacy somewhere in a big shopping centre like Bluewater or Lakeside, there isn't that sense of community, it's much more transactional and you don't get that individual rapport with people.
Claire Noyelle:One of the bits I loved most about the pharmacies that I worked in was the fact that we often had a fairly big population of drug misuse clients that you saw every day for their Methadone replacement stuff. I loved working with them because you were the only person they saw on a daily basis and you were the one that could go how's it going? Is everything alright? And I loved that because that, how I'd experienced my own pharmacy as a kid, that felt the right thing to do for me, I really enjoyed that. But I think you're right, you miss out in those big impersonal pharmacies that are in shopping centers or the ones that are remote that Gary's mentioned, you don't get that.
Claire Noyelle:And I think that's that's a real change.
Chris Johannes:And I and I appreciate the pressures that are in those environments nowadays, but I don't think it takes a lot. And I think it only takes a little bit of training maybe or a little bit of awareness because I can tell you 2 2 occasions, very different, very wide apart where I've gone to the GP because I've been depressed years before I became a therapist and things like that. But I there's 2 occasions, and they're so different because the first time I went, it was this is how I'm feeling, and it was very much the guy was not even looking at me just popping on the whole time I was talking and just while I finished talking, handed me the prescription and said, there you go. Thank you very much. Whereas the second time and do do you know what?
Chris Johannes:I I took them for about 3 days, and then I said, I don't want it anymore. I'm not taking them and just moved on, which obviously, as you know, not enough chance for them to do it, make any difference. And then if you look a couple of years later, I found myself in a position, and I went again. And this time, the GP took the time to look at me and said so it looked at my finger and said, so you've got children? He said, yeah.
Chris Johannes:You've got other children. How old are your children? You know? Talking to nothing to do with about why I was there, but it was to do with why I was there. Yeah.
Chris Johannes:He made he he made engagement in that conversation, and he and he gave me a reason to want to get better and then said these
Claire Noyelle:things how you should be.
Chris Johannes:Yeah. And then he said these, drugs, they do this. This will help. You know? And he he made that effort.
Chris Johannes:And I stuck with those ones more because he made that little bit of effort. You know.
Claire Noyelle:And I think that's really key. But unfortunately, as Gary said, because of that workload that your GP has got about 8 minutes to see you, write his notes, prescribe something and move on to the next person. Pharmacists as as Peter said are often stuck doing fairly banal stuff like checking prescriptions which is not particularly fulfilling I can tell you, but we don't always have the time and space so I think there is definitely room for a sort of rejig of the health landscape that people have got access to easily to make it more accessible, but I think also maybe there's an expectation that we should, that people should ask questions, that they need to actually take a little bit of more proactive approach rather than just kind of sliding in going I've got backache and by the way just as you've all capped or I've not been feeling great either. That's the wrong way to think about it because by that time you've lost your 7 and a half minutes and you've got about 5 seconds left before the next person comes in. So I think there is an element of if people want to get the best out of the landscape, the NHS and the services it has, you've got to be a little bit pushy.
Claire Noyelle:The sad thing about that is if you're not feeling mentally robust, that's really hard to
Peter Ely:do. Oh, and I think one of the one of the things I was gonna ask, because we've talked about the difference between men and women in pharmacies, and you've said that women are a little bit more kind of forthcoming with staff. What advice because we are all solution focused in what we do. So what advice can you give to men about visiting their pharmacies, about taking care of their medical or mental and physical health? What advice would you give to say to men, you can do this?
Peter Ely:Because a lot of it, we don't really know what we can do and how far we can go. That, that piece of advice just there saying, focus on the thing that's important first with your GP. That's fantastic. Because I I'm very much one of those people that will go, oh, I'm here because I've got a bit of athletes, but, oh, yeah. And by the way, my left arm doesn't work or something like that.
Peter Ely:Right? Leave the big thing to the last. So what kind of advice can you give to, to men to sort of help us, certainly for people my age, help us understand what what we can actually get out of visiting our pharmacies?
Claire Noyelle:Well, the first one is speak up. There's a lot of people in that pharmacy who can help, whether it's the the lady on the counter who I promise you has got really good training in in how to deal with stuff over the counter. If she doesn't think it's in her remit she will pass you on to the pharmacist, so ask the question. But I also think it's about kind of being open. I know you guys have had this whole policy of making sure you talk but just ask the questions.
Claire Noyelle:There's a lot of stuff that we can do for you but I can't point you in the right direction or give you the best advice unless you ask unless you tell me what it is that you're actually here for. So asking for stuff for sleep is usually a little bit of a clue for me, if someone's asking for sleep, yes I can, I can have a chat to you about what else you can do to help with your sleep and that's something that is often supportive but ask the questions, that's the first thing? Because there may be more that pharmacy can do for you, particularly now as we're sort of expanding out the what we can do, it may be that we can sign post you on to a specific clinic. We had, the guy that I work with does a hair loss clinic, a weight loss clinic, a vaccination and kind of B12 support clinic, all of those are add ons that you may not, you may not know about. So ask the questions, but I think even before that the biggest one is don't leave it so blooming late, you guys will just go oh it'll go away, it'll go away, it'll go away, and then it's not just athletes foot at that point, it's leprosy, So don't leave it till the last minute.
Claire Noyelle:When it starts to become a problem, go chat to somebody. I think that's probably the biggest difference. Women will go, oh I've had this little thing for a couple of days, blokes will come in, oh I've had it about a year and a half, and now I've got a problem because something over the counter isn't gonna cut
Benn Baker-Pollard:it.
Gary Johannes:You're talking about early intervention? Early
Claire Noyelle:intervention. That nature.
Gary Johannes:Which is what we always talk about. If you look at any mental health condition, they it always says, the earlier you can get to this, the more chance you can get speedier recovery with physical health too. Yeah. And one of the biggest challenges, and probably they again, I'm of that sort of area where that's you you talk to the GP. You know, if you've got an issue, you go to the GP, which is harder and harder to get to see, etcetera, etcetera.
Gary Johannes:They've got this pharmacy first thing going on now. Actually, is should we be adopting? Do you know what? If we're just not feeling great, speak to the pharmacist, because if you need more, they will point you up. So that chain you're talking about, talk to that lady or or gentleman on the front counter who's not a pharmacist, but they do know more than you think, who will then up wage you if they feel they can if they if it's out there, we admit they'll up wage you to a pharmacist.
Gary Johannes:Is a pharmacist the best point to call then to to get a better understanding whether you need to go to see the GP or whether there's something you can get you can do yourself?
Claire Noyelle:Yeah. I think that's a really good assessment of it. We're easy to find. We're really easy to see, and we probably know more than you give us credit for. So, yeah, don't leave it to the last minute, go and chat to them.
Claire Noyelle:If we you know, it genuinely if we can't do it or if it needs a prescription, don't worry, we'll send you to the right place, but come in and chat to the pharmacist about all things mental, all things physical, maybe not all things spiritual, but I can find somewhere for you to go
Gary Johannes:for that. So so so you're an attractive lady and I've got an issue which I'm uncomfortable talking to about How what can you say to me now, which will blow away all my reserves because
Claire Noyelle:Oh, we've probably seen it before.
Gary Johannes:So there's nothing I can tell you which is gonna shock you. Is that what you're saying?
Claire Noyelle:Not. Know I've been shown probably every body part that you guys possess in my time as a pharmacist, I've seen photos of it that I'm not quite sure what angle I need to have it
Chris Johannes:at, I've
Claire Noyelle:seen it in 3 d and it's fine, there's always a consultation room, don't think that you're gonna have
Gary Johannes:have to drop your trousers in in
Claire Noyelle:the shop, there will be somewhere quiet you can go, nobody's gonna pass you a strip off in the middle of the aisle, in the middle of the aisle. They, you know, all pharmacies are required to have a private consultation area. Some of them, if you're really feeling a little bit like a sensitive flower, may even have a male Pharmacist that you might be more comfortable with. But I really liked Chris's point that sometimes you don't want to be with a male pharmacist. A female might be slightly more approachable.
Gary Johannes:It's really strange. I I actually would prefer also seeing a female, talking about my challenges. You know, you all know I've been through bladder cancer. I much prefer when I get a female doctor to deal with my issues and and, inspections, you might say, than having a male doctor. It's really weird.
Gary Johannes:It's not
Claire Noyelle:because that's because men respond to you different Do you think that's because the male health care professionals deal with things in a different way to female health care professionals?
Gary Johannes:Yeah. That may be more compassionate, less judgment, but that's probably me more than them. But what I I think the thing is what what what stops me or would stop me if, you know, I'm one of those people who actually would drop my trousers in the middle of the supermarket or in the middle of the pharmacy. And I think Gary,
Benn Baker-Pollard:we don't need that here, mate.
Gary Johannes:But you all
Benn Baker-Pollard:That's against the law, mate.
Gary Johannes:All 3 of you would do the same. I know that. None of you have got so much pride you wouldn't do that. So but, actually, most men would find it quite uncomfortable talking generally about everything they do with health to a pharmacist, because I don't think you're as experienced as, a GP.
Claire Noyelle:I think the thing to think about that is really to get it from a different angle. GP's are trained for many many years in the actual organic underlying disease. Pharmacists have a shorter training period, it's it's 4 years as opposed to 7 or 8, but our speciality is drugs. We know what medication is for what things. So if you're struggling with I'm not feeling quite right on my medication, I think it might be a side effect, it might be something that's not quite been dealt with.
Claire Noyelle:That's our specialty, so it's not an either or, it's as well as we should work well together, but I think the understanding and that's probably down to the pharmacy governing bodies, is they've done a really poor job of getting that across to people. We are seen as these little kind of ninjas or minions in the back in a white coat that you get a piece of paper and a few minutes later your medication arrives and we kind of don't have anything to do with it, we're not, we're just invisible. But we're not, we love we love talking to people for the most part because we're bored of checking prescriptions, give me a real live person to have a conversation with and see the end result of what I've just done.
Benn Baker-Pollard:I wanna emphasize that a little bit for you, just the importance of the pharmacist because I think that's a really valid point that people really underestimate. So every NHS Ambulance Trust will have a medical director who is a doctor, and that will advise them on their clinical interventions and things that they can take. But they all have a pharmacist. And the pharmacist has to advise doctor and the medical directorate on the drug interactions and side effects, and they rely on that pharmacist for that insight and knowledge. So they're, you know, they both have a substantial amount of weight.
Benn Baker-Pollard:But as Claire says, drugs is our specialty, and that's sometimes better than the knowledge of your GP.
Gary Johannes:Can I can I take that little step further? Because I think you're right. But I know nothing about the ambulance service and nothing about the medical profession. But I do know a little bit about what Claire spoke to us about before. So it's not that they're specialists in drugs.
Gary Johannes:They're specialists in how drugs affect us as humans, how they affect our biology, how they affect our physical capabilities. So it's not just, I know everything about drugs. I know what this will do to you and why it's doing that. And I think that's a bit of a need to think. You know, your knowledge of the body, your knowledge of the human response to a drug is probably more than most GPs.
Gary Johannes:That's why GPs ask you what, you know, and working together, you get the outcome.
Claire Noyelle:Yeah. And I think that's a it comes back to that thing about questions. If it's not working the way you want it, have a quick chat to the pharmacist because it may be that by taking it an hour later after you've had your breakfast or at a different point in the day or with something else, but it will work better for you. So, yeah use the expertise that your pharmacist has, ask the questions, but I keep coming back to the same thing, don't leave it to the last minute. So many men will send their wife in to get stuff for them because they're all going to the pharmacy anyway.
Claire Noyelle:And that's why I get all these random pictures of of bits that I'm, like, leaving a lay.
Gary Johannes:So so I I'm a typical lazy bloke. Alright. So I would send someone else in to get my stuff because why would I go? I'm not gonna do it. But I remember I've known Claire quite a long time.
Gary Johannes:And I remember I've got an underactive fibroids. So I'm on something like fibroxine or something. And I was talking to her about those, and I'm taking a couple of other pills for other things. And she Claire Claire's lovely until she's not. And and she gave me a white rollicking about just taking all my tablets at the same time because I didn't know nobody had ever told me that I need to take it take my foboxone at a completely different time to anything else and on an empty stomach before.
Gary Johannes:So she told me exactly what I should do and how to do it. And since then, which was a number of years ago, I've been very well behaved and get up and take my fluoxet on an empty stomach. But Claire gave me a one thing, but the doctor never told me that. My pharmacy at the time, which I'm not with, and now it just got delivered. Just deliver it.
Gary Johannes:But they would have assumed, and it was Claire who put me straight about how to make it really effective, to make my drugs work. And it was that take a different time might might be think about that. But, actually, having that conversation with a pharmacist and, you know, enabled my drugs to be very efficient and effective compared to the way I was taking them. They was probably working, but they were better because I was taking them appropriately and properly.
Claire Noyelle:Yeah. Probably let you have a slight lower dose so that you actually absorbed all the dose that you needed rather than having a much higher dose that you wasted half. So, yeah, that's that's a that's a good
Gary Johannes:told me that you just shout out at me.
Claire Noyelle:Mhmm. I'm not that scary.
Gary Johannes:Alright. Because
Benn Baker-Pollard:you don't shout at anyone, do you, Gary?
Gary Johannes:Never. Never have. Never.
Peter Ely:So we're coming to, the end of the podcast. I have, I have just a very quick question first before I kind of hand back over to you, Claire. And that question is pharmacy first, because I don't think the advertising campaign is great. And I know you touched on it that you said, you can go for earaches and other bits. What what actually does Pharmacy First do?
Peter Ely:What can I, as a man, come to you and say, I need a prescription? I need some advice on this. What does Pharmacy First help me with that?
Claire Noyelle:Pharmacy First is meant to I mean, I don't like this the phrase take the pressure off for GPs because they have a real role to do but I think it's about shifting access, that's the nicer thing because it's been very frustrating as a Pharmacist to know exactly what you might need but not be a position to be able to supply it, knowing that it's going to take you a while to get it. So Pharmacy First aims to shift the ease of access for some common conditions. So, if you have Shingles, if you have, sinusitis, if you have an infected insect bite all of you could come into the pharmacy, show us your, the appropriate body part, We do an assessment and say, okay, that's alright for the minute, keep an eye on it, but come back if it doesn't get any better. Or we might say, yeah, that definitely needs antibiotics. Here is your antibiotics, here is how you take them, if it's no better in a week come back and we'll reassess.
Claire Noyelle:So it's aimed at improving that. But there's also an add on for children which is for middle ear issues that you can have, there is a little section for, urinary tract infections in women that you can do, but there's all sorts of issues that we can now prescribe for. So sinusitis, sore throats, infected insect bites and shingles. You just walk into a pharmacy and within the space of 10 minutes you could walk out with an antibiotic that would have taken you maybe 3 or 4 days to get from the GP, so it's bringing me back to that early access point of don't leave it too late'. If your insect bite is looking a bit red sore and itchy and it's swollen, don't just put up with it, you can get that sorted and you can get it sorted sooner rather than later, which I think is a brilliant idea.
Peter Ely:Amazing. Thank you. And then finally, Claire, where can people find you? What where can people find you from a hypnotherapy perspective? Where can people find you?
Peter Ely:They want to come and talk to you from a pharmaceutical perspective.
Claire Noyelle:Yeah. Form an orderly queue outside Gravesend Regent Pharmacy on a Wednesday. That's my regular spot and I will be there happily dispensing prescriptions and chatting to everybody on a Wednesday. But the rest of the time, you can find me at claire@inspired to change dot biz where I work from Maidstone. My practice as you guys will know but not everybody else will is Solution Voprotip Therapy.
Claire Noyelle:Principally working with people who want to reduce their dependence on medication that could be something recreational, it could be something like pain, it could be wanting to give up antidepressants and empower yourself to do without them. That's something that I love working with, but I also have a specialist in working with neurodiversity. So children, adults, young people with a neurodivergent diagnosis, helping them to cope better with life and everything in between. The variation is what I love about what we do.
Peter Ely:Amazing. Thank you so much. I know that we could generally talk to you genuinely talk to you for hours and hours because you've got such a a depth and breadth of knowledge, but thank you for sharing your experiences with us here today. We hope we haven't been too hard on you and that you've enjoyed the talk.
Claire Noyelle:No. I've loved it. I said it's really nice to actually be on here because I've listened to you and I love, I love the vibe that you boys have as as this, I think it's a really nice podcast to share with my male clients and those that I come across because guys do talk, you just have to give them the right conditions and a slight kick to get them to do it properly. So, yeah. Keep going.
Peter Ely:So Thank you. Goodbye from me, and yeah, I'll let everybody say their goodbyes.
Gary Johannes:Yeah. Thank you. See you later. Speak soon.
Chris Johannes:Yeah. Thank you, Claire, for coming on, and it's been fantastic as always to see you.
Claire Noyelle:Thanks, Claire. Thank you all. Goodbye from me.
Peter Ely:So goodbye, and thank you very much, everybody. We'll catch you on the very next episode.
Gary Johannes:Thank you for listening to the podcast that proves men do talk.
Benn Baker-Pollard:If you would like more information or support, then please visit inspired to change dot biz,
Peter Ely:where you can learn more about us and the Inspire to Change team.
Chris Johannes:And remember, the conversation continues on our social media at inspired mentalk.
