Elite Sport and Mental Health - Special Guest Chris Ramsey MBE
This is inspired men's talk for solution focused therapists born in 4 different decades who openly and honestly discuss their perspectives on the issues surrounding men's mental health, the things that stigma says we don't talk about.
Peter Ely:This episode is Elite Sports and Mental Health. Can it mess your head up? And with us as always is Gary, Chris, and Ben. And we've got very special guest today, Chris Ramsay, MBE, and his family friend and, a fantastic human being. And I'm gonna pass to Chris and say, Chris, would you like to tell us a little bit about yourself, your history, and what you do?
Chris Ramsey MBE:Yeah. Chris Ramsay, company technical director and head coaching at, Windspark Rangers. I'm in my 40, 5th season in football as a player, coach, manager, etcetera. I've known Pete for all his life, and, basically, very pleased to be invited on to the show.
Peter Ely:Thank you. Thank you, Chris. And I think, you know, do you wanna talk a little bit about the highlights of your of your playing career? Just so that people know a little bit more about about you because some people might not know who you are.
Chris Ramsey MBE:Yeah. I mean, I've I've played in all the divisions. I played for Brightest. I'm in my 40, 5th season in football as a player, coach, manager, etcetera. I've known for all his life, and, basically, very pleased to be invited on to the show.
Peter Ely:Thank you. Thank you, Chris. And I think, you know, do you wanna talk a little bit about the highlights of your of your playing career? Just so people know a little bit more about about you because some people might not know who you are.
Chris Ramsey MBE:Yeah. I mean, I've I've played in all the divisions. I played for Brighton when they were in the old first division. Like, Swindon, Bristol, South Bend. Played abroad in Malta in America.
Chris Ramsey MBE:And then I coached in all divisions as well. But, well, I coached at Tottenham. I was there for almost 10 years, ended up as 1st team, 1st team coach alongside Tim Sherwood and Fess Ferdinand. Moved to Queen's Park Rangers, and I was head of play development. I became a manager for a year.
Chris Ramsey MBE:They won their own apprenticeship and in championship. And now I'm the technical director and put in all the technical program for the players outside the first team and actually the bridge between the first team and the academy. That's just a whistle stop for all of my, in my 45 years.
Peter Ely:Thank you very much.
Gary Johannes:45 years is a hell of a career in one Yeah.
Gary Johannes:In one discipline, you might say. That's In
Chris Ramsey MBE:one discipline when I went in the old first division, Like, Swindon, Bristol, South End. Played abroad in Malta in America. And then I coached in all the divisions as well, but, well, I coached at Tottenham. I was there for almost 10 years, ended up as 1st team, 1st team coach alongside Tim Sherwood and then moved to Queens Park Rangers, and I was head of play development. I became a manager for a year in 1 hour in the premiership and in championship.
Chris Ramsey MBE:And now I'm the technical director and put in all the technical program for the players outside the first team and actually the bridge between the first team and the academy. That's just a whistle stop for all of my, in my 45 years.
Peter Ely:Thank you very much.
Gary Johannes:45 years is a hell of a career in one Yeah.
Gary Johannes:In one discipline, you might say that.
Chris Ramsey MBE:In one discipline. Yeah. But I started only in 9/78 when I started. Wow. In apprentice in Bristol City.
Chris Ramsey MBE:Mhmm.
Chris Ramsey MBE:So, you know, that that was pioneering really at that time. So we're black players playing.
Chris Ramsey MBE:And, so I've seen a lot lot of change. A lot lot change.
Gary Johannes:Yes. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it we we do have an interest in.
Chris Ramsey MBE:And So it's been good
Chris Ramsey MBE:it's been good I mean, this has been difficult.
Chris Ramsey MBE:You know, when you're involved in first team, first team was always difficult because you you you're the the cutting edge, really. But this is what I'm doing now where I work with every sort of, club, every sort of, player of club, it's, it's more enjoyable.
Peter Ely:Nice. Now I think one
Peter Ely:of the things that that kind of prompted me to reach out to you, Chris, was we've we've seen recently stories where Dele Alli has
Chris Ramsey MBE:had a manager for a year. They won their own apprenticeship and in championship. And now I'm technical director put in all the technical program for the players outside the first team and actually the bridge between the first team and the academy. That's just a whistle stop for all of my, in my 45 years.
Peter Ely:Thank you very much.
Gary Johannes:45 years is a hell of a career in one Yeah.
Gary Johannes:In one discipline, you might say. That's In
Chris Ramsey MBE:one discipline. Yeah. But I started only in 978. I started. Wow.
Chris Ramsey MBE:In apprentice in Bristol City. Mhmm.
Chris Ramsey MBE:So, that that was pioneering already at that time. So where many black players play in.
Chris Ramsey MBE:And, so I've seen a lot lot change. A lot of lot of change.
Gary Johannes:Yes. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it we we're gonna have an interesting quote.
Chris Ramsey MBE:So it's been good it's
Chris Ramsey MBE:been good. I mean, it's it's been difficult.
Chris Ramsey MBE:You know, when you're involved in firstly, it was always difficult because you you you're the the cutting edge, really. But this is what I'm doing now where I work with every sort of, club, every sort of player in club, it's, it's more enjoyable.
Peter Ely:Nice. Now I think one of
Peter Ely:the things that that kind of prompted me to reach out to you, Chris, was we've we've seen recently stories where has talked about his mental health, and has talked about his mental health. And I kinda wondered a little bit about what's what's mental health like in elite sport? Is it is it that it goes on, but not many people speak out about it? Is it that it it's not really addressed? What's been your experience of
Chris Ramsey MBE:it wasn't addressed before. There's a big surge towards addressing it now. I think there are a lot of people that make a mockery of it, both positively and negatively. And and I I don't mean positively in the fact. I mean, positively by in trying to do it, they they they go over the realms of what's required.
Chris Ramsey MBE:And then some people actually put it to a side and don't think it's paid. So at the moment, we've got a player that I used to work with Steven Callahan doing some stuff, called Behind the White Knight. Just really spraying the air. But I started only in 978 when I started. Wow.
Chris Ramsey MBE:In apprentice at Bristol City.
Gary Johannes:Mhmm.
Chris Ramsey MBE:So, you know,
Chris Ramsey MBE:that that
Chris Ramsey MBE:was pioneerial, really, at that time. So we're, you know, black players playing.
Chris Ramsey MBE:And, so I've seen a lot lot of change. A lot not change.
Gary Johannes:Yes. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it we we do have an interest in.
Chris Ramsey MBE:And So it's been good it's been good
Chris Ramsey MBE:I mean, this has been difficult.
Chris Ramsey MBE:You know, when you're involved in first thing, first thing was always difficult because you're you're you're the the cutting edge, really. But this is what I'm doing now where I work with every sort of, club, every sort of player of club. It's, it's more enjoyable.
Peter Ely:Nice. Now I think one of the things that that kind of prompted me to reach out to you, Chris, was we've we've seen recently stories where Dele Alli has talked about his mental health, and has talked about his mental health. And I kinda wondered a little bit about what's what's mental health like in elite sport? Is it is it that it goes on, but not many people speak out about it? Is it that it it's not really addressed?
Peter Ely:What's been your experience of it?
Chris Ramsey MBE:It wasn't addressed before. There's a big surge towards addressing it now. I think there are a lot of people that make a mockery of it, both positively and negatively. And and I I don't mean positively in the fact. I mean, positively by in trying to do it, they they they go over the realms of what's required.
Chris Ramsey MBE:And then some people, actually put it to a side and don't think it's a thing. So, at the moment, we've got a player that I used to work with, Steven Korka, he's doing some stuff, called Behind the White Knight. Just really someone who's been at top level, outlining the the the the need for people to to address the mental health issues of the players. I think, at the moment, that there is a approach to to to look at mental health. I think professionals coming into it need to be better a little bit better than they are because a lot of people look at as in as in anything, you know, in sports science or nutrition or whatever.
Chris Ramsey MBE:They look at football as a bit of a cash cow. So you do have a lot of charlatans coming in, that don't actually help the the the players or or the industry. Before it was something where you you wouldn't actually be open about it. And I think a lot of males, a lot of men are not are not open about it. And and obviously, a lot of top class athletes are not open about it because they people see it as a sign of weakness.
Chris Ramsey MBE:People see it as a sign that they may not be picked for discipline. It's been difficult. You know, when you're involved in first team football, first team football is always difficult because you're you're you're the the cutting edge, really. But this is what I'm doing now where I work with every sort of, club, every sort of player of club. It's, it's more enjoyable.
Peter Ely:Nice. Now I think one of
Peter Ely:the things that that kind of prompted me to reach out to you, Chris, was we've we've seen recently stories where Dele Alli has talked about his mental health, and has talked about his mental health. And I kinda wondered a little bit about what's what's mental health like in elite sport? Is it is it that it goes on, but not many people speak out about it? Is it that it it's not really addressed? What's been your experience of it?
Chris Ramsey MBE:It wasn't addressed before. There's a big surge towards addressing it now. I think there are a lot of people that make a mockery of it, both positively and negatively. And and I I don't mean positively in the fact. I mean, positively by in trying to do it, they they they go over the realms of what's required.
Chris Ramsey MBE:And then some people, actually put it to a side and don't think it's a thing. So, at the moment, we've got a player that I used to work with, Steven, called, he doing some stuff, called Behind the White Knight. Just really someone who's been at a top level, outlining the the the the need for people to to address the mental health issues of the players. I think, at the moment, that there is a approach to to to look at mental health. I think professionals coming into it need to be better, a little bit better than they are.
Chris Ramsey MBE:Because a lot of people look at as in as in anything, you know, in sports science or nutrition or whatever. They look at football as a bit of a cash cow. So you do have a lot of charlatans coming in, that don't actually help the the the players or or the industry. Before it was something where you you wouldn't actually be open about it. And I think a lot of males, a lot of men are not are not open about it.
Chris Ramsey MBE:And and obviously, a lot of top class athletes are not open about it because they people see it as a sign of weakness. People see it as a sign that they may not be picked for a discipline that they're in. So I think there's a long way to go with it even though there has been a lot of exposure.
Chris Johannes:Absolutely. And you I mean, you you hit the nail on the head.
Chris Johannes:That's why we do this podcast about it was something that people didn't speak about before. That's why we've done started a podcast called Inspired Men Talk to see if why men don't talk or do talk, and that's what we do. But you said it's been really interesting there that you find that some people almost use mental health as a cash cow, particularly in football. People overcompensate or actually doing more harm than good, but putting up the face that they're trying to do good. And that's a really interesting point.
Chris Johannes:I don't think that we've considered in all the episodes of the podcast that we've done so far.
Chris Ramsey MBE:Yeah. I mean, it's it's it's easy, isn't it, to to set yourself up as a mental
Peter Ely:He's talked about his mental health, and Richarlison has talked about his mental health. And I kinda wondered a little bit about what's what's mental health like in elite sport? Is it is it that it goes on, but not many people speak out about it? Is it that it it's not really addressed? What's been your experience of it?
Chris Ramsey MBE:It wasn't addressed before. There's a big surge towards addressing it now. I think there are a lot of people that make a mockery of it, both positively and negatively. And and I I don't mean positively in fact. I mean, positively by in trying to do it, they they they go over the realms of what's required.
Chris Ramsey MBE:And then some people actually put it to a side and don't think it's paid. So at the moment, we've got a player that I used to work with Steven Kalka. He's doing some stuff, called Behind the White Knight. Just really someone who's been at the top level, outlining the the the the need for people to to address the mental health issues of the players. I think, at the moment, that there is a approach to to to look at mental health.
Chris Ramsey MBE:I think professionals coming into it need to be vetted, a little bit better than they are. Because a lot of people look at as an as an anything, you know, in sports science or nutrition or whatever. They look at football as a bit of a cash cow. So you do have a lot of charlatans coming in, that that actually help the the the players or or the industry. Before, it was something where you you wouldn't actually be open about it.
Chris Ramsey MBE:And I think a lot of males, a lot of men are not are not open about it. And and obviously, a lot of top class athletes are not open about it because they people see it as a sign of weakness. People see it as a sign that they may not be picked for a discipline that they're in. So I think there's
Chris Ramsey MBE:a long way to go with it even though there has been
Chris Ramsey MBE:a lot of, exposure.
Chris Johannes:Absolutely. And you I mean, you you hit the nail on
Chris Johannes:the head. That's why we do this podcast about it was something that people didn't speak about before. That's why we've done started podcast called Inspire Mentor to see if why men don't talk or do talk, and that's what we're doing. But you said something really interesting there that you find that some people almost use mental health as a, a cash cow, as you put it. You particularly in football, people overcompensate or actually doing more harm than good, but putting up the face that they're trying to do good.
Chris Johannes:And that's a really interesting point. I don't think that that we've considered in all the episodes and podcasts that we've done so far.
Chris Ramsey MBE:Yeah. I mean, it's it's it's easy, isn't it, to to set yourself up as a mental strength coach or something like that? It's easy to do that because people are searching. And what people tend to do I mean, I'm I'm not gonna name names. But, recently, we had a situation where, a player did ask a young player did ask the club to if they could assist them with a with a psychologist.
Chris Ramsey MBE:And the psychologist was the psychologist of a top class player. So it validated that validated that psychologist because they're working with a top class player. And and and it it mental health should be seen like that. I mean, mental health for me is the lever. It's it's more of the lever than than anything else.
Chris Ramsey MBE:Because when the door shuts, we're all on our own. Regardless of the money that you got or regardless of the situation you're in. So, people people tend to think that that wealth exonerates you from having mental health problems, but it but it doesn't. So I think there are a lot of people that make a mockery of it, both positively and negatively. And and I I don't mean positively in the fact.
Chris Ramsey MBE:I mean, positively by in trying to do it, they they they go over the realms of what's required. And then some people actually put it to a side and don't think it's fake. So at the moment, we've got a player that I used to work with Steven Korka. He's doing some stuff, called Behind the White Knight. Just really someone who's been at a top level, outlining the the the the need for people to to address the mental health issues of the players.
Chris Ramsey MBE:I think, at the moment, that there is a approach to to to look at mental health. I think professionals coming into it need to be better, a little bit better than they are. Because a lot of people look at as in as in anything, you know, in sports science or nutrition or whatever. They look at football as a bit of a cash cow. So you do have a lot of charlatans coming in, that don't actually help the the the players or or the industry.
Chris Ramsey MBE:Before it was something where you you wouldn't actually be open about it. And I think a lot of males, a lot of men are not are not open about it. And and obviously a lot of top class athletes are not open about it because they people see it as a sign of weakness. People see it as a sign that they may not be picked for a discipline that they're in. So I think there's a long way to go with it even though there has been a lot of exposure.
Chris Johannes:Absolutely. And you I mean, you you hit the nail on the head.
Chris Johannes:That's why we do this podcast about it was something that people didn't speak about before. That's why we've done started a podcast called Inspired Men Talk to see if why men don't talk or do talk, and that's what we're doing. But you said something really interesting there that you find that some people almost use mental health as a cash cow, particularly in football. People overcompensate or actually doing more harm than good, but putting up the face that they're trying to do good. And that's a really interesting point.
Chris Johannes:I don't think that we've considered in all the episodes of the podcast that we've done so far.
Chris Ramsey MBE:Yeah. I mean, it's it's it's easy, isn't it, to to set yourself up as a mental strength coach or something like that. It's easy to do that because people are searching. And what people tend to do I mean, I'm not gonna name names. But, recently, we had a situation where, a player did ask, A young player did ask the club to if they could assist them with a with a psychologist.
Chris Ramsey MBE:And the psychologist was the psychologist of a top class player. So it validated that validated that psychologist because they're working with a top class player. And and and it it mental health should be seen like that. I mean, mental health to me is the lever. It's it's more of a leavener than than anything else.
Chris Ramsey MBE:Because when the door shuts, we're all on our own regardless of the money that you got or regardless of the situation you're in. So people people tend to think that that wealth exonerates you from having mental health problems, But it but it doesn't. So there are a lot of top class athletes, popular actors, whatever they might might be, which is seen, you know, top a top actor. Also, I hear, recently with predictions and stuff like that. So it's really important that that we look at this more holistically than than than just looking at at at people at
Chris Ramsey MBE:the top top end of their profession and people at the bottom end of their profession.
Peter Ely:And Benn sorry. I think,
Peter Ely:you know, Ben Ben worked in the police schools, just so, you know, Chris, for a long period of time. Ben, you must see some similarities in the police force from what Chris was saying
Benn Baker-Pollard:there. Well, listen to Chris talk. One thing that comes to mind is, you know, I think of, like, the locker room mentality that might be there. That's probably the same that I'd have in the police in in your teams. You know?
Benn Baker-Pollard:You say it's not something that's talked about in the police. It's never talked about because it was seen as a sign of weakness. And and, you know, the best way you sort of deal with mental health would be to go down the pub and have a few points and maybe get
Chris Ramsey MBE:someone who's been at top level outlining the the the the need for people to to address the mental health issues of the players. I think, at the moment, that there is a approach to to to look at mental health. I think professionals coming into it need to be better, a little bit better than they are because a lot of people look at as in as in anything, you know, in sports science or nutrition or whatever. They look at football as a bit of a cash cow. So you do have a lot of charlatans coming in, that that actually help the the the players or or the industry.
Chris Ramsey MBE:Before, it was something where you you wouldn't actually be open about it. And I think a lot of males, a lot of men are not are not open about it. And and obviously, a lot of top class athletes are not open about it because they people see it as a sign of weakness. People see it as a sign that they may not be picked for a discipline that they're in. So I think there's
Chris Ramsey MBE:a long way to go with it even though there has been a lot of,
Chris Ramsey MBE:exposure.
Chris Johannes:Absolutely. And you I mean, you you hit the nail on
Chris Johannes:the head. That's why we do this podcast about it was something that people didn't speak about before. That's why we've done started podcast called Inspire Mentor to see if why men don't talk or do talk, and that's what we're doing. But you said something really interesting there that you find that some people almost use mental health as a, a cash cow, as you put it. You particularly in football, people overcompensate or actually doing more harm than good, but putting up the face that they're trying to do good.
Chris Johannes:And that's a really interesting point. I don't think that that we've considered in all the episodes and podcasts that we've done so far.
Chris Ramsey MBE:Yeah. I mean, it's it's it's easy, isn't it, to to set yourself up as a mental strength coach or something like that? It's easy to do that because people are searching. And what people tend to do I mean, I'm I'm not gonna name names. But, recently, we had a situation where, a player did ask a young player did ask the club to if they could assist them with a with a psychologist.
Chris Ramsey MBE:And the psychologist was the psychologist of a top class player. So it validated that validated that psychologist because they're working with a top class player. And and and it it mental health should be seen like that. I mean, mental health for me is the lever. It's it's more of the lever than than anything else.
Chris Ramsey MBE:Because when the door shuts, we're all on our own. Regardless of the money that you got or regardless of the situation you're in. So, people people tend to think that that wealth exonerates you from having mental health problems, but it but it doesn't. So there are a lot of top class athletes, popular actors, whatever they might might be, which is seen, you know, top a top actor. Answer why he had recently with predictions and stuff like that.
Chris Ramsey MBE:So it's really important that that we look at this more than than than just looking at the people at
Chris Ramsey MBE:the top top end of their profession and people at the bottom end of their profession.
Peter Ely:And Ben sorry. I think,
Peter Ely:you know, Ben Ben worked in the police schools, just so you know Chris, for a long period of time. Then you must see some similarities in the police force from what Chris was saying there.
Benn Baker-Pollard:Well, listen to Chris talk. One thing that comes to mind is, you know, I think of, like, the locker room mentality that might be there. That's probably the same that I'd have in the police in in your teams. You know? You say it's not something that's talked about in the police.
Benn Baker-Pollard:It's never talked about because it was seen as a sign of weakness. And and, you know, the best way you sort of deal with mental health would be to go down the pub and have a few points and maybe get something off your chest. But once you've done it, it's buried and it's done, and you don't talk about it again. So does that kind of thing play out, I guess, in the locker room? Is it very much that when you're in the change rooms or you're out on the pitch playing, you don't talk about it at work?
Benn Baker-Pollard:Is it kept away, or is there a space to have that downtime, I guess, where you can go with your your other mates and your players, where you can get through your chest in
Benn Baker-Pollard:the pub or somewhere somewhere else?
Chris Ramsey MBE:Well, one of the one
Chris Ramsey MBE:of the big things about about mental health, and and I look back myself and I and looking back at what I know now and what, and how my career now. Injuries injuries are major source of of of, of mental health problems. So I'd rather say we have a a a very, very good friend of mine called doctor Musa Jervis, who who deals with, when people have trauma, as you would have seen in the police force, that people don't have a lot of charlatans coming in, that don't actually help the the the players or or the industry. Before, it was something where you you wouldn't actually be open about it. And I think a lot of males, a lot of men are not are not open about it.
Chris Ramsey MBE:And and obviously, a lot of top class athletes are not open about it because they people see it as a sign of weakness. People see it as a sign that they may not be picked for a discipline that they're in. So I think there's
Chris Ramsey MBE:a long way to go with it even though there has
Chris Ramsey MBE:been a lot of, exposure.
Chris Johannes:Absolutely. And you I mean, you you hit the nail on
Chris Johannes:the head. That's why we do this podcast about it was something that people didn't speak about before. That's why we've done started podcast called Inspire Mentor to see if why men don't talk or do talk, and that's what we're doing. But you said something really interesting there that you find that some people almost use mental health as a, a cash cow, as you put it. You particularly in football, people overcompensate or actually doing more harm than good, but putting up the face that they're trying to do good.
Chris Johannes:And that's a really interesting point. I don't think that that we've considered in all the episodes and podcasts that we've done so far.
Chris Ramsey MBE:Yeah. I mean, it's it's it's easy, isn't it, to to set yourself up as a mental strength coach or something like that. It's easy to do that because people are searching. And what people tend to do I mean, I'm I'm not gonna name names. But, recently, we had a situation where, a player did ask a young player did ask the club to if they could assist them with a with a psychologist.
Chris Ramsey MBE:And the psychologist was the psychologist of a top class player. So it validated that validated that psychologist because they're working with a top class player. And and and it it mental health should be seen like that. I mean, mental health for me is the lever. It's it's more of the lever than than anything else.
Chris Ramsey MBE:Because when the door shuts, we're all on our own. Regardless of the money that you got or regardless of the situation you're in. So people people tend to think that that wealth exonerates you from having mental health problems, but it but it doesn't. So there are a lot of top class athletes, popular actors, whatever they might might be, which is seen, you know, top a top actor. Tackle what he had recently with predictions and stuff like that.
Chris Ramsey MBE:So it's really important that that we look at this more holistically than than than just looking at people at
Chris Ramsey MBE:the top top end of their profession and people at
Chris Ramsey MBE:the bottom end of their profession.
Peter Ely:And Ben sorry. I think,
Chris Ramsey MBE:you know, Ben Ben worked in the
Peter Ely:police schools, just so you know Chris, for a long period of time. Then you must see some similarities in the police force from what Chris was saying there.
Benn Baker-Pollard:Well, listen to Chris talk. One thing that comes to mind is, you know, I think of, like, the locker room mentality that might be there that's probably the same that I have in the police in in your teams. You know? You say it's not something that's talked about in the police. It was never talked about because it was seen as a sign of weakness.
Benn Baker-Pollard:And and, you know, the best way you sort of deal with mental health would be to go down the pub and have a few points and maybe get something off your chest. But once you've done it, it's buried and it's done, and you don't talk about it again. So does that kind of thing play out, I guess, in the locker room? Is it very much that when you're in the change rooms or you're out on the pitch playing, you don't talk about it at work? Is it kept away, or is there a space to have that downtime, I guess, where you can go with your your other mates and your players, where you can get through your chest
Benn Baker-Pollard:in the pub or somewhere somewhere else?
Chris Ramsey MBE:Well, one of the one
Chris Ramsey MBE:of the big things about about mental health, and and I look back myself and I and looking back at what I know now and what, and how my career now. Injuries injuries are major source of of of, of mental health problems. So I'd rather say we have a a a very, very good friend of mine called doctor Musi Jarvis, who who deals with, when people have trauma, as you would have seen in the police force, that people don't actually realize that. That's when you actually do really need that care. And you do really do need to be able to express yourself.
Chris Ramsey MBE:And so what we try to do is put something into place when people have long term interest, that that they are looked upon as somebody who's got another injury, which is which is could be a mental health problem. So I look at myself. I have 15 operations, back in the seventies eighties. And, and I look at my I look back now, knowing what I know, I'm probably in that
Chris Ramsey MBE:Okay.
Chris Ramsey MBE:I
Chris Ramsey MBE:drank a lot. I drank a lot. I I I drank most of the time.
Chris Ramsey MBE:So you go into a bit, you know, depression is is not always obvious. If you're if you're the right and soul of the party, you you you don't always realize that you're actually in a depressive state and you're actually self medicating on on alcohol or or or late nights out. You know, this isn't that they're in. So I think there's a long way to go with it even though there has been a lot of exposure.
Chris Johannes:Absolutely. And you I mean, you you hit the nail on
Chris Johannes:the head. That's why we do this podcast about it was something that people didn't speak about before. That's why we've done started a podcast called Inspired Men Talk to see if why men don't talk or do talk, and that's what we're doing. But you said something really interesting there that you find that some people almost use mental health as a cash cow, particularly in football. People overcompensate or actually doing more harm than good, but putting up the face that they're trying to do good.
Chris Johannes:And that's a really interesting point. I don't think that we've considered in all the episodes of the podcast that we've done so far.
Chris Ramsey MBE:Yeah. I mean, it's it's it's easy, isn't it, to to set yourself up as a mental strength coach or something like that. It's easy to do that because people are searching. And what people tend to do I mean, I'm not gonna name names. But, recently, we had a situation where, a player did ask, A young player did ask the club to if they could assist them with a with a psychologist.
Chris Ramsey MBE:And the psychologist was the psychologist of a top class player. So it validated that validated that psychologist because they're working with a top class player. And and and it it mental health shouldn't be seen like that. I mean, mental health for me is the lever. It's it's more of a leavener than than anything else.
Chris Ramsey MBE:Because when the door shuts, we're all on our own regardless of the money that you got or regardless of the situation you're in. So people people tend to think that that wealth exonerates you from having mental health problems, But it but it doesn't. So there are a lot of top class athletes, popular actors, whatever they might might be, which is seen, you know, top a top actor. Also, I hear, recently with predictions and stuff like that. So it's really important that that we look at this more holistically than than than just looking at at people at
Chris Ramsey MBE:the top top end of their profession and people at
Chris Ramsey MBE:the bottom end of their profession.
Peter Ely:And Ben sorry. I think, you
Chris Ramsey MBE:know, Ben Ben worked in the
Peter Ely:police force, just so, you know, Chris, for a long period of time. Ben, you must see some
Peter Ely:similarities in the police force from what Chris was saying there.
Benn Baker-Pollard:Well, listen to Chris talk. One thing that comes to mind is, you know, I think of, like, the locker room mentality that might be there. That's probably the same that I have in the police in in your teams. You know? You say it's not something that's talked about in the police.
Benn Baker-Pollard:It's never talked about because it was seen as a sign of weakness. And and, you know, the best way you sort of deal with mental health would be to go down the pub and have a few points and maybe get something off your chest. But once you've done it, it's buried and it's done, and you don't talk about it again. So does that kind of thing play out, I guess, in the locker room? Is it very much that when you're in the change rooms or you're out on the pitch playing, you don't talk about it at work?
Benn Baker-Pollard:Is it kept away, or is there a space to have that downtime, I guess, where you can go with your your other mates and your players, where you can get through your chest
Benn Baker-Pollard:in the pub or somewhere somewhere else?
Chris Ramsey MBE:Well, one of the one
Chris Ramsey MBE:of the big things about about mental health, and and I look back myself and I and looking back at what I know now and what and how my career at now. Injuries injuries are major source of of of, of mental health problems. So I'd rather say we have a a a very, very good friend of mine called doctor Musa Jarvis, who who deals with, when people have trauma, as you would have seen in the police force. That people don't actually realize that. That's when you actually do really need that care.
Chris Ramsey MBE:And you do really do need to be able to express yourself. And so what we try to do is put something into place when people have long term insurance, that that they are, looked upon as somebody who's got another injury, which is which is could be a mental health problem. So I look at myself. I have 15 operations when I've had, back in the seventies eighties. And, and I look at my I look back now knowing what I know I'm probably in that pod.
Chris Ramsey MBE:Okay.
Chris Ramsey MBE:I drank a lot. Drank a lot. I I I drank most of the time.
Chris Ramsey MBE:So you go into a bit, you know, depression is is not always obvious. If you're if you're the life and soul of the party, you you you don't always realize that you're actually in a depressive state and you're actually self medicated on on alcohol or
Chris Ramsey MBE:on late nights out. You This is an
Chris Ramsey MBE:addiction of not being accepted. This is an addiction of wanting to be out and always being on the scene with other people, and our whole spark. And one of
Chris Johannes:the things is is you have an injury
Chris Ramsey MBE:and you go into that that cycle of anger and the denial, and then you have to accept before you recover. But how long you stay in that anger and denial is where the alcohol and and and the substance abuse, I would say, which I never I was never part of substance abuse, but but I was definitely in
Chris Johannes:the age of the eighties, seventies, and eighties. It was a drinking culture.
Gary Johannes:Yeah.
Benn Baker-Pollard:Right until, say, the mid nineties.
Chris Ramsey MBE:So I would a lot of the the mental problems that people have were sort of like hidden with the culture of of of alcohol Yeah. And the way that people behave in those space.
Benn Baker-Pollard:And that's why as you know, thinking about that, one thing
Benn Baker-Pollard:that definitely speaks to us,
Chris Johannes:use mental health as a, a cash cow, as you put it. You particularly in football, people overcompensate or actually doing more harm than good, but putting up the face that they're trying to do good. And that's a really interesting point. I don't think that that we've considered in all the episodes and podcasts that we've done so far.
Chris Ramsey MBE:Yeah. I mean, it's it's it's easy, isn't it, to to set yourself up as a mental strength coach or something like that. It's easy to do that because people are searching. And what people tend to do I mean, I'm I'm not gonna name names. But, recently, we had a situation where, a player did ask a young player did ask the club to if they could assist them with a with a psychologist.
Chris Ramsey MBE:And the psychologist was the psychologist of a top class player. So it validated that validated that psychologist because they're working with a top class player. And and and it it mental health shouldn't be seen like that. I mean, mental health to me is the leavener. It's it's more of the leavener than than anything else.
Chris Ramsey MBE:Because when the door shuts, we're all on our own. Regardless of the money that you got or regardless of the situation you're in. So people people tend to think that that wealth exonerates you from having mental health problems, but it but it doesn't. So there are a lot of top class athletes, popular actors, whatever they might might be, which is seen, you know, top a top actor. Answer what he had recently with predictions and stuff like that.
Chris Ramsey MBE:So it's really important that that we look at this more holistically than than than just looking at the people at
Chris Ramsey MBE:the top top end of their profession and people at
Chris Ramsey MBE:the bottom end of their profession.
Peter Ely:And Ben sorry. I think, you
Peter Ely:know, Ben Ben worked in the police schools, just so you know Chris, for a long period of time. Ben, you must see some similarities in the police force from what Chris was saying there.
Benn Baker-Pollard:Well, listen to Chris talk. One thing that comes to mind is, you know, I think of, like, the locker room mentality that might be there that's probably the same that I have in the police in in your teams. You know? You say it's not something that's talked about in the police. It was never talked about because it was seen as a sign of weakness.
Benn Baker-Pollard:And and, you know, the best way you sort of deal with mental health would be to go down the pub and have a few points and maybe get something off your chest. But once you've done it, it's buried and it's done, and you don't talk about it again. So does that kind of thing play out, I guess, in the locker room? Is it very much that when you're in the change rooms or you're out on the pitch playing, you don't talk about it at work? Is it kept away, or is there a space to have that downtime, I guess, where you can go with your your other mates and your players, where you can get it through your chest in
Benn Baker-Pollard:the pub or somewhere somewhere else?
Chris Ramsey MBE:Well, one of the one
Chris Ramsey MBE:of the big things about about mental health, and and I look back myself and I and looking back at what I know now and what, and how my career now. Injuries injuries are major source of of of, of mental health problems. So I'd rather say we have a a a very, very good friend of mine called doctor Musa Jarvis, who who deals with, when people have trauma, as you would have seen in the police force, that people don't actually realize that. That's when you actually do really need that care. And you do really do need to be able to express yourself.
Chris Ramsey MBE:And so what we try to do is put something into place when people have long term insurance, that that they are, looked upon as somebody who's got another injury, which is which is could be a mental health problem. So I look at myself. I have 15 operations when I'm late, back in the seventies eighties. And, and I look at my I look back now knowing what I know, I'm probably in that pod. Okay.
Chris Ramsey MBE:I
Chris Ramsey MBE:drank a lot. Drank a lot. I I I drank most of the time.
Chris Ramsey MBE:So you go into a bit, you know, depression is is not always obvious. If you're if you're the light and soul of the party, you you you don't always realize that you're actually in a depressive state and you're actually self medicating on on alcohol or
Chris Ramsey MBE:on late nights out. This is
Chris Ramsey MBE:an addiction of not being accepted. This is an addiction of wanting to be out and always being on the scene with other people. And alcohol is part of it. And one of
Chris Johannes:the things is is you have an injury and
Chris Ramsey MBE:you go to that that cycle of anger anger denial, and then you have to accept before you recover. But how long you stay in that anger and denial is where the alcohol and and and the substance abuse, I would say, which I never I was never part of substance abuse, but but I was definitely in the age of the eighties, seventies,
Chris Johannes:and eighties. It was a drinking culture.
Gary Johannes:Yeah.
Benn Baker-Pollard:Right until, say, the mid nineties.
Chris Ramsey MBE:So I would a lot of the mental problems that people have were sort of like hidden with the culture of of of alcohol Yeah. And the way that people behave in those space.
Benn Baker-Pollard:And I suppose, you know, thinking about that, one thing
Benn Baker-Pollard:that definitely springs to mind for me is that I can go to work. I when I used to be in the police, and I could do my job. I take my uniform off, and I can disappear and go home. That's not something that kinda happens to you guys, is it? Because, ultimately, you live in the public limelight pretty much most of the time.
Benn Baker-Pollard:So how do
Benn Baker-Pollard:you escape that? Does how does that
Benn Baker-Pollard:play out for you in in terms of your mental health as well?
Chris Ramsey MBE:Well, in in in the early days when I first started playing, you you you probably were only getting abused by people that were local to you that can see you. Whereas now, I think it's worse because of the the the social media. You're you're never away from you. So so now I think from that point of view, you're in a situation where people know you are all the time, regardless of the level that you're playing, you're playing at. And people have always got have always got an avenue to you to to abuse you verbally.
Chris Ramsey MBE:Therefore, the the the mental health problems now in the past and culture or something like that. It's easy to do that because people are searching. And what people tend to do I mean, I'm not gonna name names. But, recently, we had a situation where, a player did ask, A young player did ask the club to if they could assist them with a with a psychologist. And the psychologist was the psychologist of a top class player.
Chris Ramsey MBE:So it validated that validated that psychologist because they're working with a top class player. And and and it it mental health should be seen like that. I mean, mental health to me is the lever. It's it's more of a leavener than anything else. Because when the door shuts, we're all on our own.
Chris Ramsey MBE:Regardless of the money that you got or regardless of the situation you're in. So people people tend to think that that wealth exonerates you from having mental health problems, But it but it doesn't. So there are a lot of top class athletes, footballers, actors, whatever they might might be, which is seen, you know, top a top actor. Also, what he had recently with predictions and stuff like that. So it's really important that that we look at this more holistically than than than just looking at the people at
Chris Ramsey MBE:the top top end of their profession and people at
Chris Ramsey MBE:the bottom end of their profession.
Peter Ely:And Ben sorry. I think,
Peter Ely:you know, Ben Ben worked in the police schools, just so, you know, Chris, for a long period of time. Then you must see some similarities in the police force from what Chris was saying there.
Benn Baker-Pollard:Well, listen to Chris talk. One thing that comes to mind is, you know, I think of, like, the locker room mentality that might be there that's probably the same that I have in the police in in your teams. You know? You say it's not something that's talked about in the police. It was never talked about because it was seen as a sign of weakness.
Benn Baker-Pollard:And and, you know, the best way you sort of deal with mental health would be to go down the pub and have a few points and maybe get something off your chest. But once you've done it, it's buried and it's done, and you don't talk about it again. So does that kind of thing play out, I guess, in the locker room? Is it very much that when you're in the change rooms or you're out on the pitch playing, you don't talk about it at work? Is it kept away, or is there a space to have that downtime, I guess, where you can go with your your other mates and your players, where you can get it through your chest in
Benn Baker-Pollard:the pub or somewhere somewhere else?
Chris Ramsey MBE:Well, one of the one
Chris Ramsey MBE:of the big things about about mental health, and and I look back myself and I and looking back at what I know now and what, and how my career now. Injuries injuries are major source of of of, of mental health problems. So I'd rather say we have a a a very, very good friend of mine called doctor Musa Jarvis, who who deals with, when people have trauma, as you would have seen in the police force, That people don't actually realize that. That's when you actually do really need that care. And you do really do need to be able to express yourself.
Chris Ramsey MBE:And so what we try to do is put something into place when people have long term insurance, that that they are, looked upon as somebody who's got another injury, which is which is could be a mental health problem. So I look at myself. I have 15 operations when I'm back, back in the seventies eighties. And, and I look at my I look back now knowing what I know, I'm probably in that pod. Okay.
Chris Ramsey MBE:I drank a lot. Drank a lot. I I I drank most of the time.
Chris Ramsey MBE:So you go into a bit, you know, depression is is not always obvious. If you're if you're the life and soul of the party, you you you don't always realize that you're actually in a depressive state and you're actually self medicating on on alcohol or
Chris Ramsey MBE:on late nights out. This is
Chris Ramsey MBE:an addiction of not being accepted. This is an addiction of wanting to be out and always being on the scene with other people. And alcohol's part. And one of
Chris Johannes:the things is is you have an injury
Chris Ramsey MBE:and go to that that cycle of anger anger denial, and then you have to accept before you recover. But how long you stay in that anger and denial is where the alcohol and and and the substance abuse, I would say, which I never I was never part of substance abuse, but but I was definitely in the age of the eighties, seventies,
Chris Johannes:and eighties. It was a drinking culture.
Gary Johannes:Yeah.
Benn Baker-Pollard:Right until, say, the mid nineties.
Chris Ramsey MBE:So I would a lot of the mental problems that people have were sort of like hidden with the culture of of of alcohol Yeah. And the way that people behave in those space.
Benn Baker-Pollard:And I suppose, you know, thinking about that, one thing
Benn Baker-Pollard:that definitely springs to mind for me is that I can go to work. I when I used to be in the police, and I could do my job. I take my uniform off, and I can disappear and go home. That's not something that kinda happens to you guys, is it? Because, ultimately, you live in the public limelight pretty much most of the time.
Benn Baker-Pollard:So how
Benn Baker-Pollard:do you escape that? Does how does that
Benn Baker-Pollard:play out for you in in terms of your mental health as well?
Chris Ramsey MBE:Well, in in in the early days when I first started playing, you you you probably were only getting abused by people that were local to you that can see you. Whereas now, I think it's worse because of the the the social media. You're you're never away from it. So so now I think from that point of view, you're in a situation where people know you are all the time, regardless of the level that you're playing, you're playing at. And people have always got have always got an avenue to you to to abuse you verbally.
Chris Ramsey MBE:Therefore, the the the mental health problems now in the past, your mental health problems were different in the fact that your career was short. You didn't earn the money that you're earning out. An injury, One injury could totally mean your career was over and you weren't able to to pay your bills and stuff like that. There's a there there there another problem, Mike, for argument's sake, retirement. You know?
Chris Ramsey MBE:Yeah. I I'm actually realizing now how many of my sixties I'm now gonna be in a transition period with retirement, means that I think about what's gonna happen in the next part of my life. So I've been fortunate to have 45 years, but people who start finishing at 30, start coming towards the end of their career. They have injuries. They have, social media social media attention and stuff like that.
Chris Ramsey MBE:So for mental health issues, I'm not I wouldn't say I'm not more, but they're they are slightly different to what they were before.
Gary Johannes:Chris, do do you think I mean, one of the things you said quite early on is, like, over 45 years, you've worked in all the divisions.
Chris Ramsey MBE:Because they're working with a top class player. And and and it it mental health should be seen like that. I mean, mental health for me is the lever. It's it's more of a lever than than anything else. Because when the door shuts, we're all on our own.
Chris Ramsey MBE:Regardless of the money that you got or regardless of the situation you're in. So people people tend to think that that wealth exonerates you from having mental health problems, but it but it doesn't. So there are a lot of top class athletes, popular actors, whatever they might might be, which is seen, you know, top a top actor. Tackle what he had recently with predictions and stuff like that. So it's really important that that we look at this more holistically than than than just looking at people at
Chris Ramsey MBE:the top top end of their profession and people at
Chris Ramsey MBE:the bottom end of their profession.
Peter Ely:And Ben sorry. I think,
Chris Ramsey MBE:you know, Ben Ben worked in the
Peter Ely:police schools, just so you know Chris, for a long period of time. Ben, you must see some similarities in the police schools from what Chris was saying there.
Benn Baker-Pollard:Well, listen to Chris talk. One thing that comes to mind is, you know, I think of, like, the locker room mentality that might be there that's probably the same that I'd have in the police in in your teams. You know? You say it's not something that's talked about in the police. It was never talked about because it was seen as a sign of weakness.
Benn Baker-Pollard:And and, you know, the best way you sort of deal with mental health would be to go down the pub and have a few points and maybe get something off your chest. But once you've done it, it's buried and it's done, and you don't talk about it again. So does that kind of thing play out, I guess, in the locker room? Is it very much that when you're in the change rooms or you're out on the pitch playing, you don't talk about it at work? Is it kept away, or is there a space to have that downtime, I guess, where you can go with your your other mates and your players, where you can get through your chest
Benn Baker-Pollard:in the pub or somewhere somewhere else?
Chris Ramsey MBE:Well, one of the one
Chris Ramsey MBE:of the big things about about mental health, and and I look back myself and I and looking back at what I know now and what, and how my career now. Injuries injuries are major source of of of, of mental health problems. So I'd rather say we have a a a very, very good friend of mine called doctor Musi Jarvis, who who deals with, when people have trauma, as you would have seen in the police force, that people don't actually realize that. That's when you actually do really need that care. And you do really do need to be able to express yourself.
Chris Ramsey MBE:And so what we try to do is put something into place when people have long term interest, that that they are looked upon as somebody who's got another injury, which is which is could be a mental health problem. So I look at myself. I have 15 operations, back in the seventies eighties. And, and I look at my I look back now, knowing what I know, I'm probably in that pod. Okay.
Chris Ramsey MBE:I
Chris Ramsey MBE:drank a lot. Drank a lot. I I I drank most of
Chris Ramsey MBE:the time. So you go into a bit, you know, depression is is not always obvious. If you're if you're the right and soul of the party, you you you don't always realize that you're actually in a depressive state and you're actually self medicating on on alcohol or on late nights out. You know, this is an addiction of of of of not being accepted. This is an addiction of of of wanting to be out and always being on the scene with other people.
Chris Ramsey MBE:And alcohol is part of it. And one of
Chris Johannes:the things is is you have an injury
Chris Ramsey MBE:and you go to that that cycle of anger anger denial, and then you have to accept before you recover. But how long you stay in that anger and denial is where the alcohol and and and the substance abuse, I would say, which I never I was never part of substance abuse, but but I was definitely
Chris Johannes:in the age of the eighties, seventies, and eighties. It was a drinking
