Friends and Mental Health What's That About?
Welcome to Inspire Mentalk for solution focused therapists born in 4 different decades who openly and honestly discuss their perspective on the issues surrounding men's mental health. The things that stigma says we don't talk about. Hello and welcome to another episode of Inspired Men talk. And this week, we are gonna be talking about friendship. So what does friendship mean to us?
Benn Baker-Pollard:Do we have good friendships? Do we have bad ones? And can our friends actually be honest with us about how they're feeling and their mental health? Can they tell us how they truly are feeling underneath? And do we recognize, more importantly, what they're going through?
Benn Baker-Pollard:So, Pete, I'm gonna come to you first. What's your experience of friendships? You had good ones, bad ones?
Peter Ely:So I think a lot of my friendships I've been thinking a lot about this recently, and a lot of my friendships stem from when I was young, when I was in my teenage years, and it was kind of easy to make friends. And then as I've got older, I realized just quite recently that it's probably been 10 years, 12 years before I've made since I've made a single friend. And I went a long period of time without making any new friends. And as I've got older enough, I think that was because I was very focused and driven by work and not by myself and looking after myself. And it's only recently since becoming a therapist that I've started to actually actively work at making stronger and better friendships.
Peter Ely:And that's kind of been my my life experience. So it was easy when you were a kid. And then kind of through my twenties thirties, I found it really difficult. But now I'm starting to find it easier to get friends again because I think I've changed. And I look at the the work friends that I I kind of or the people at work that I worked with, and some of them should have become friends, but, actually, they never the those relationships never materialized, because they were just kind of work colleagues, and we never took it to the next the next kind of level to become friends.
Peter Ely:And I'll talk a bit more about that kind of as we go along. But yeah.
Benn Baker-Pollard:When you say it was difficult in your 20, thirties, what was difficult about it?
Peter Ely:I think I don't think I think I had my my small group that I I was with. So sort of like my I had in my twenties, there was me and my very good post group of friends, so I didn't really look for new friends. In my thirties, that that group kind of split a little bit. And then I just I don't know if I knew how to make friends because it had always been very natural and very organic friendships in my in my youth had just kind of been very easy. You know?
Peter Ely:It was almost like you're at school and you go, do you wanna be friends? And you're friends with someone. And and I I met this first group of friends from doing a martial arts class together. And then after that, it just seemed difficult to make friends. And I don't know if it was because I was a bit lazy or whether it was just it was difficult.
Peter Ely:But, yeah, I I kind of found it to be quite a difficult process to make friends, which then meant I kind of became very isolated, I think, at times as well.
Benn Baker-Pollard:Yeah. Cool. Chris, what about you?
Chris Johannes:I think what Peter said, I think I can definitely relate to that. You know, it when you're at school, it is easier to make friends for some people. You know, and it's more natural. You make friends. It happens.
Chris Johannes:And I'm in my thirties now, and I actually am we're hearing what Peter's saying, and I can relate to that now because, yeah, you don't really actively go looking out for friends. Or if you do, you don't really know how or, you know, you you kind of life revolves around what you've got going on. So whether that's work, children, family, all those responsibilities, friends and social life kind of drop off as a priority. So on the occasion where you have got a bit of spare time, you go, I'd really like to go out and socialize. It's like but that one friend isn't available, so I can't.
Chris Johannes:You know? So and that's when I I notice it. That's when I notice. Alright. Really, I've got a seriously small group of friends now nowadays because when those 1 or 2 friends are not available, I've got no one to goss about with going to go and make plans with.
Chris Johannes:So, yeah, I definitely can relate to what Peter said. But it's interesting what you said about, making friends at school's easy, and I think it's those teenage years where it becomes more prevalent that you make friends for life. I think that's something that's very clear. You make you when you're in your younger years at primary school, you make little friends you knock about with and play in the playground, but I think you make your friends for life in those teenage years because I've still got a friend from my teenage years from when I was in secondary school that I can go 18 months, 2 years without actually a text message and then pick up the phone and pick up as like it never never dropped off. You know?
Chris Johannes:I've got those friends. 1 in particular. But my son, he's, 10 years old. And as a parent, I do sometimes worry because he doesn't find it easy to make friends. He really doesn't.
Chris Johannes:You know? And as a parent and I think a lot of parents will probably feel the same. You that you that really hurts, and that terrifies you that your child is finding it hard to make friends and that they might be lonely at school. I think we get a little bit over worried. I think, you know, life will take its course.
Chris Johannes:Eventually, it'll find the people that are like him, and he'll make those friends. But when you've got a 10 year old saying I haven't got any friends at school, it's it is heartbreaking. And I think we've got to we've got to accept that not everybody makes friends easily when they're young. Or, you know, they they they'll find their group much later in life. And that's okay.
Chris Johannes:I think as hurtful as it feels as a parent, as much as you want your kids to have lots of friends, be very popular, and have the best birthday parties, you know, it's okay if they only have 1 or 2 because I think 1 or 2 good friends is better than half a dozen mates that are just there because you because they like the way you make them feel.
Benn Baker-Pollard:It's interesting, isn't it? It resonates with me probably. I made more friends as I got older. I found friends younger. Particularly at school, I got irritated by people because I thought they were really immature, and they used to wind me up.
Benn Baker-Pollard:But that was because of my life experience in growing up, I suppose. I always got on better with more mature people, and I always hung around with much older group of friends, particularly in my village. Come home from school and I'll be hanging around if I'm, like, 13, I'll be hanging around with the 17, 18 year olds doing stuff because it fitted my mindset. And coming to into the adult world, so to speak, Again, I find that much easier to make friends, but also we kind of drift into this bit of work colleagues who we class as friends when we're working there, but like Pete said, don't necessarily all transfer into that relationship of actually being a close friend that you can rely on in different situations. Gary, what about you?
Benn Baker-Pollard:You need to turn your mute off, darling.
Gary Johannes:Okay. So I'll pick up on something you just said about difference between, what
Benn Baker-Pollard:Friends and work colleagues or what?
Gary Johannes:Friends and work colleagues. And I think, you know, you're all talking about mates. Sort of friends who almost people you can confide in and lifelong friends. But I think for life, we go through having lots of mates, whether it's work colleagues or part of a sports team they're in or things like that. So you have sort of, like, colleagues, folk, mates who that part of that tribe.
Gary Johannes:But when you move through or move on, they say where they are and you've moved through. And some people tend to able to take people through. So I I I'm I'm not sure if I had a very good upbringing with friendship. So I come from a very large family. So I had a lot of that emotional needs I've catered for a lot, but within the family.
Gary Johannes:But they also left school at 13, 14. I just stopped going because, and now I've realized probably because I was bullied that we were very poor. So that was easy. We I was an easy target, so it was easy not to go. But then I joined the air folks at 16.
Gary Johannes:In fact, I joined when I was 15. So a couple of days after my 16th birthday, I've got on a train and disappeared to another part of the country in East Anglia from London. So I then was in the air force, but everybody was transient. So you make friends with someone, then they get, oh, I'm posted. See you later.
Gary Johannes:So even if you had friends, nobody ever stuck. And I was still trying to find how I fitted in and who I was. And then when I left the forces, I then went on through different jobs, and I wasn't very good at so and then I ended up owning places, and you can't make friends with your employees. So, actually, everything I had was transient. I had a friend for now.
Gary Johannes:As soon as I or they moved on, it finished. Mhmm. And it wasn't until about 10 or 15 years ago that I got and I think what happened was I found out who I was. So I spent my life trying to be a friend to people. So I was continually adapting and and sacrificing, giving up levels of me to fit.
Gary Johannes:So nobody ever made friends with me because they never knew who I was because I was and then quite often, I was massively let down by people who I've walked with friends over, ripped me off. And I've been ripped off a few times. I've been let down a lot. So you then don't put yourself out there into that space so easily. And it wasn't until I started being so authentic, much more authentic, and actually accept me, accepting warts and all, you might say.
Gary Johannes:And then it got to a little bit of, well, Sergio, I don't care who you are, what you see, what you get, And almost got a little bit repellent or pushing people away. If you don't like this, tough. And that lasted for a couple of years. And then it's like, okay. Let's settle down.
Gary Johannes:And then the people around me now, I've got some people who are dear, dear friends of mine who I literally would jump in a car right now. And if they called me, they didn't help, and they'd do the same for me, which I had my first birthday party last summer, which some of you bothered to come to. Peter didn't bother coming to. I think That's because he's
Benn Baker-Pollard:not your friend. He didn't like
Gary Johannes:it. Okay. He couldn't be bothered to come. But the rest of you don't and I had a lot of people there. There was about a 140 people there.
Gary Johannes:If I had that when I was 40, 6 people would have turned up because I hadn't actually made any friends or really created a a friendship group of mates and people who wanted to be in that space. And that really made such a big difference to me. So sometimes it's hard
Chris Johannes:not knowing
Gary Johannes:how to be a friend. I didn't know how to be a friend. And then And I
Benn Baker-Pollard:think we can probably all resonate with that point you made about we changed who we were to fit in to being in friendship groups. Yeah. I think we were all probably guilty of that. I know I certainly am. But interestingly, when you do behave as you, and I think finding you is an important part.
Benn Baker-Pollard:Peter's touched on it already as well. Once you're confident in your own skin as who you are and you don't feel you have to compromise that or change for people, then you do make genuine friends because people would like you for for exactly what they can see. Pete, you mentioned about being a therapist and how that changed the way you interact with people, made it easier to make friends. Tell us a bit more about
Peter Ely:that. Yeah. So I I think, firstly, I have to say that I did have, minor surgery, which is why I missed Gary's birthday party. Right? I'm not a terrible human being.
Peter Ely:Right? I just thought that would let's clear that one up.
Benn Baker-Pollard:I'm guilt tripped in there, Gary. How awful are you? That's my friendship.
Peter Ely:But
Gary Johannes:I've I thought that's what a friendship was all about, making people so that's how I create friends. I I I force them into that space.
Peter Ely:Thank you. Yeah. I've just given away half of my medical history. No. So I think I think it's it's a very long similar lines.
Peter Ely:You know? Did my journey to becoming a therapist helped me to learn about who I was? And as you say, once you learn who you are, you're more open to people, and you're more open to who they become and who they are. And that's what's made it easier for me to to find friends. I think my my blockers went down.
Peter Ely:I I, like Gary, I spent a lot of time managing people, and it's very difficult to be friends with people that you manage because sometimes their expectation is that they can get away with things because they're your friend. And I had that one time where I went out with a chat, and I kept saying to him, you've got work in the morning. Do you need to go home? We're having a few beers. And I said it at, like, 8 o'clock, at 9 o'clock, at 10 o'clock.
Peter Ely:Eventually, he went home at, like, 12 o'clock and then didn't turn up for work the next day. And I had to manage that, and I had to deal with that in in the situation. And he got really upset that after he was like, I was out with you. And I said, yeah. But that's not my issue.
Peter Ely:You I kept telling you you could go home. So people sometimes don't understand what, how how it is when you're managing them and how your friendship will work. And that makes it difficult to then become friends with people.
Gary Johannes:Yeah. You're never late on pride about who you're with.
Peter Ely:Yeah. You go drinking with the Admiral your next day or whatever the air force equivalent is the next day. You're, you're on you're on post, right? Whether he's in bed or not. And it's the same sort of thing.
Peter Ely:So, so that, because of that experience, it made it difficult for me to then have friendships because people would either try to abuse that or then they would abuse you when you you stuck to the rules as it were. So so not doing that now is a lot is a is a really nice way of having, being able to make friends. But one thing I wanted to pick up on what Chris said where he said, you know, you can have it's it's better to have maybe 1 or 2 close friends than 5 or 6 big. I was reading a study that said, actually, the most successful friendship groups are a mixture of. So, yes, it is lovely to have those, really close people that you can confide with, but it's also nice to have those people that you can just have a beer with and talk nonsense with and have that nice mix if you can, builds builds us as more rounded human beings with better friendships.
Benn Baker-Pollard:Yeah. I think, yeah, it brings to mind Dale Carnegie's how to win friends and influence people book, which I'm currently listening to on audio. And there's a lot of principles that bring to mind as we're talking. And the really easy and obvious one is one of his first things is don't criticize, condemn, or complain about your friends or what that that person is going through. I think you can find friends who actually you sit down for that coffee with them, and that's all they do.
Benn Baker-Pollard:They criticize, condemn everybody in the world. And, you know, sometimes they'll even criticize you directly and say, so it's your problem. It's It's x y zed. But I think that I think of my genuine friends, I've got 2 of them. 1 sadly just passed away without telling anybody, but they are the people that you can pick up the phone to at any time of night or day like you talk about, Gary.
Benn Baker-Pollard:And I don't see them. They live up in Yorkshire, and it doesn't matter. I could turn up on their doorstep at 3 AM in the morning, and I'd be welcomed in, and they'd help me with whatever my problem is. So I think they play an important part. But, yeah, if I reflect on who, I've got I've got a wide group of friends that we just meet out for beers, and that's kind of the social element, which is good.
Benn Baker-Pollard:In terms of things that have gone wrong, and this is something that resonates with me, is I said that I lost a friend recently. She didn't tell me that she was had cancer or that she was dying. I just found out after she died. And I think if we've got friends, do you think or how do we make sure that we have the space that they feel they can talk about whatever their problems are and know that you will support them? And can you spot that coming in?
Benn Baker-Pollard:Because I didn't see it. I didn't know anything about it, but I would have been there if I could have. So, Chris, you got any thoughts on that?
Chris Johannes:Yeah. I mean, kind of tying into what you said about the book you was listening to as well, where you you don't criticize, condemn, or complain about friends. I think that's absolutely true. I do think when it comes to the close friends, your lifelong friends, the friends you've had for 10, 15, 20 years, I think they're they become to a point where they're more like a family member, where you can be that honest person to them. You know, this is how my relationship works with my very close friends, and it's you know, we can tell each other the truth of how they, how it how it looks.
Chris Johannes:You know? We can sit there and say, he could come to me with a problem and say, I've I've done this. I've messed up a little bit. I can say, yeah. You're an.
Chris Johannes:You shouldn't have done that or, you know, sort your life out, get this done, get this done over a over a glass of whiskey or a beer. You know? We can do that, but it's not so much of that criticize, condemn, and complain. It's this is this is how it is. What do you need from me?
Chris Johannes:You know? And that's that's more like a family member to me. That's how you that's how fam that's how my family is. That's how we work, and that's how my very close friends work. But I don't feel that you can get that from those social mates.
Chris Johannes:I think if you go into that, then it is that criticize, condemn, and complain. That's how it's perceived. I think, yeah, it's a very careful area. When somebody comes to you with a problem and you go, you know, it's your fault. You should have sort you should have done this.
Chris Johannes:Shouldn't yeah. That doesn't make good friendships. I think you need to make the good shit friendship first, and then later on, the proof can come. But opening that space to make it okay to be able to have those truthful conversations of this is how it is and this is how where we are, I I think that comes with time and trust. You know?
Chris Johannes:And I do believe that also sometimes friends won't necessarily want to burden each other. That quote comes into it as well. You know? Normally, with my close friends, it's when the shit really hits the fan, that they come and we we do these things together. But they'll have gone through a lot of grind before it got to that point where they reached out sometimes without a word, you know, without saying.
Chris Johannes:And it could if you'd have told me before, I'd have I'd have come and helped sort of. Those come that always comes up. And I think that you feel like a burden. Yeah. I mean, everybody's got their own life going on.
Chris Johannes:It goes back to my other point where friendships become less of a priority because you've got work commitments, family commitments, you know, and friendships do sometimes drop on that list of priorities, and your good friends know that. They know you've got bigger priorities and bigger things going on, so they don't wanna add to burden. You know? They don't wanna add to your load until it's too late and they can't and they're at the bottom. And, thankfully, they go, I need to go to this friend because, I'm I I I have got no no where else to go now.
Chris Johannes:This is the last thing. You know? So, yeah, I think I think there's a lot going on there with that. It's good. Space.
Gary Johannes:So I I'm here in a similar thing. I know that when I'm in trouble, I don't ask very well. I'm a really poor asker, but I expect everyone to ask me because that's almost my role in the world. You know? But then I don't feel I can ask of other people because that's my role is to help people.
Gary Johannes:Their role is to ask for help. I can't easily comfortably swap it because that's not what they've known me for. And then if they're going for any level of crisis, it's just like, well, I can't tell them because they're going through this and going through that. So there is a level of that. The other thing is people who know you well know you don't wanna talk about it.
Gary Johannes:So they accept. So I most of the people who know me well accept if I need help, I'll ask otherwise. I'll just go on with it. And they they'll cross with me because I never asked, but they know that I wouldn't anyway. So it's just like sometimes it hurts, but you have to go with that.
Gary Johannes:That's them. That's who they are. They they you know, and it's really difficult when they're really close friends. And sometimes that close friend can be family, and sometimes they can fill up family. So it's really difficult.
Gary Johannes:But I think one of the things I I you know, what's important to me is understanding where how to open that space up. And this has inspired men talk, and apparently men don't talk. I was doing a I have an attack with a guy who wants a, a suicide male suicide prevention charity I was speaking to him last week, and it's still the narrative that men don't talk. But, again, we're here because we do talk. But how do we create that space?
Gary Johannes:It's easy to tell to use for other people to talk because, you know, is it does it does it need do we need to? Is it a a a need? Is that, you know, are we just barking up the wrong tree? What do you think?
Benn Baker-Pollard:I think, you know go on. If you
Peter Ely:No. Go ahead. Go ahead. Okay.
Benn Baker-Pollard:It really irritates me men don't talk because it it causes so many issues. You know? I'm not a man if I if I do talk about how I feel or when I've got a problem. But it applies, I think, across the board when you're in, you know, even the females working in fairly significant roles that are would be in old money sort of viewed as male only roles. I think they feel the same pressure.
Benn Baker-Pollard:I think they don't feel that they can talk about their issues either because I think they will be cast as being weak and, oh, she shouldn't have been in that position anyway, can't do the job, and so on and so forth. So I think there's crossover between men and women, but I I find it difficult to open that space for everybody, in my friendship circle because some people just don't really give it the time of day. They brush it off. No matter how hard you try or offer that support, people sometimes just don't wanna know and don't wanna don't wanna have that conversation. So I can't sit there and force them to do that, but all I can do is reassure them that if they want it, I'm there to help them.
Benn Baker-Pollard:Or I can subtly try and support them in the background without it causing too much of an issue or becoming a problem.
Peter Ely:And I think and I
Chris Johannes:We're all sorry, Peter. Go on. You've been drawing well.
Peter Ely:Cheers. Thank you. I think I think also one of the things with with some of the the male friendships that I've had is I felt that if if I was able to be vulnerable first, that's helped people to be vulnerable back and to kind of to open up. Because like all of you, I struggle with it. I I don't like, asking for help.
Peter Ely:But if someone's someone's come to me and been a bit vulnerable first, then it's been I've been more willing to open up. And I've found that they're now where when people don't wanna talk if I'm a little bit more vulnerable first, and then say, this is now a safe space. You're almost saying, here you go. I'm putting my vulnerability on the table. You're free to put yours on the table too, and we'll protect each other.
Peter Ely:And I've found that that's worked quite well for me.
Gary Johannes:So you're lead you're leading it?
Peter Ely:Yeah. Yeah. Opening yourself up and saying, there we go. We've all got our own vulnerabilities. It's acceptable.
Peter Ely:This is a safe space. It's an acceptable space to share that vulnerability. And then people certainly, I found that people have been a bit more certainly my male friends have been more open to then sharing their vulnerabilities with me.
Chris Johannes:I think there's a fine line between what you're saying and opening up a pity party, which is what a lot of men will go, oh, you know, I ain't gonna say I'm whinging and making a pity party of myself. And I think there was a fine line there. I think, you know, we a lot of the campaigns with men don't talk, the way you know, the way we we don't agree with necessarily. But you a lot of those campaigns that are trying to do the right things with men's mental health, a lot of them say, oh, message that man. How are you message that friend.
Chris Johannes:How are you doing? And I think that's a really good message to send out.
Gary Johannes:Like Yeah. Yeah.
Chris Johannes:Checking in with that friend. I've just spoken about a friend of mine who I'll go months months and shit. He'll be going through the grind, and then when the shit hits the fan, he'll come talk to me. So why haven't I just reached out and said, alright, mate. Fancy a coffee?
Chris Johannes:You know? Everybody's always going for shit. Don't want to become a pity party. That's most men's biggest fear, I think.
Gary Johannes:But you've you've you've said 2 things there. One, we don't want to be in that negative space or perceived as that negative space. Yeah. Or or, you know, we had Jamie on here a few podcasts ago, and he said, I I hate talking about my issues. He doesn't talk, and he doesn't see a problem of it.
Gary Johannes:He'll deal with it. Okay. So that's not necessarily men don't talk. It's just like he's got nothing to talk about. It doesn't fit the need.
Gary Johannes:Yeah. But then he's never been in the level of crisis when necessarily you're talking about. But then you also find that you don't check-in with somebody for months. Is that because you're selfish? And I don't mean that you're not nice.
Gary Johannes:I mean, that you're so focused on everything else you need to get done. You have to be, I don't think the word selfish, but it's self
Peter Ely:Busy, I think, is the word, Gary. Busy.
Gary Johannes:I don't even think I don't even think it's busy because we've always got time to do stuff. Christopher smokes. She'll go outside and have 10 minute for a cigarette break. Do you know? So it's like put your in your own head, decide on what you need to do.
Chris Johannes:Yeah. And it comes back to that prioritizing stuff, doesn't it? And I think as and I don't want to suggest this is a gender specific thing, but I think on average, as men, we do prioritize things slightly different. We do go we just sometimes do do get into that mentality. I've got to be the provider.
Chris Johannes:I've got to be the all of the things that that keeps everything together sometimes in a family. Or, you know and a family can be very small. You know? It can be one single person, but you've got to keep yourself above above water, and that's the most important thing. And you've got to keep your priorities and gotta keep pushing forward to more successful things.
Chris Johannes:And and that stuff, I think, gets in the way sometimes of those opening up to your either keeping your current friendships or making new ones because you perceive to yourself you haven't got the time. You know, I've made some very, very good friends in workplaces going a little bit backwards into the workplace thing. I've made some very, very good friends in workplaces. And, you know, the work the term work bestie is, one that's thrown around a lot now and so things like that. Flirt bestie.
Chris Johannes:And and so you're already categorizing they are only your friend due to your position in work, due to your circumstance. You know, you that is already being categorized as a circumstantial friendship. And supposed to 2. Well, this is the thing. I can honestly say I'm not very good at keeping in touch with past friends.
Chris Johannes:You know? I've
Benn Baker-Pollard:All work colleagues.
Gary Johannes:Very good friend. Or anyone.
Peter Ely:Or or yeah.
Chris Johannes:Make pretty much. But, you know and I've had made some very good friends. And as soon as I've moved on, that's it. Finished. You know, if cross paths with you again, so the luck be it.
Chris Johannes:But, you know, I know I'm I'm not proud of that fact, but it is a fact. It is just the way things are.
Benn Baker-Pollard:But is that because you've got don't have the capacity to maintain those relationships? Is that because your bucket is full with everything you've got going on? So that's almost like that's done. It's farther than out the way now. I don't have space for
Chris Johannes:tell ourselves. You know? That's what we tell ourselves. But I'm kinda going off my own point a little bit. The point I'm trying to make is with I don't wanna make it gender specific, but with men, we have these we go to work.
Chris Johannes:We do that. We might have a friend there. We move on. We go to another place and things like that. And then the spare socializing time for me, as a father of youngest children, that's their time.
Chris Johannes:That's the time that I spend with my kids. That's the time I spend with my partner. That's the time we spend together. That's my social life now. You know?
Chris Johannes:Whereas do the people that and this could be men or women, but do the people that have play more of an active role in the children's lives. So the people that do the school runs, the people that take them to the play dates, the ones that take them to the birthday parties, do they have do they find it easier to make friends because they're thrown into that deep end? You know, I've been working a lot at, inspired playtime, which is local to here. Just a little bit on the side, I've been helping out with some of the things that happened in there. And I see a lot of the time, it's mostly a mums and children thing that happens.
Chris Johannes:But you do get a few dads that come in, and they're always a little bit on the sidelines. They're always a little bit hesitant to make those conversations. Whereas a group of moms will quite happily, competently get together and talk to each other. Complete strangers. And they'll bond over the children.
Chris Johannes:But men, I think, are a bit hold hold back a little bit on that. And I'd like to touch a little bit on that. What do you guys think of that? I don't know. I'm the only one with kids at the moment.
Chris Johannes:I mean but what you guys want to think about that?
Benn Baker-Pollard:I think that probably comes from society, though, don't you? That's the society's created that by this perception of and I know it's changed a lot, but men go to work. Women stay at home, raise their kids, and do the play bit and have the coffee mornings and the interaction. I'd also say as well, there's probably from a guy's perspective, they don't wanna come across as some weirdo at the kid's place because society has created that perception that if you're a bloke and you're around kids, you're something weirdo, you're predator or pervert in some way. Actually, I'm just a dad with my child here about having a good day, trying to have fun, and I'd like to connect with other parent.
Benn Baker-Pollard:I could be a single dad doing that.
Chris Johannes:Yeah. And like you say, things are changing. You know, that isn't the norm now that dad goes to work, mom looks after the kids. That isn't the norm now, you know, life is moving on from that stereotype. But the social boundaries that are left over from that stereotype is we do get dads coming in.
Chris Johannes:You do get dads do I do the school run. You know, you do get dads doing the school run. You do get dads going to the playtimes and the play dates, but that social barrier is still there from the old mentality. So even though we are doing the roles differently now and life has moved on in the right direction, I don't think and this is from personal experience. There may be people out there who think I'm talking a load of shite, but I find it difficult to approach those those situations, You know?
Chris Johannes:And I'm quite confident in myself. I'm quite you know, I understand the the way the brain works as and everything like that. So I and even myself, if I go to a children's birthday party, I do feel a bit out of place. You know? I do feel a bit, oh, where do I put myself between these two situations, you know.
Chris Johannes:And that
Benn Baker-Pollard:and that's because you're sat in the middle playing past the parcel, Chris. Not you know, that's meant for the kids.
Peter Ely:But
Chris Johannes:I didn't see what was wrong with that.
Benn Baker-Pollard:Pete, Pete, what were you gonna
Peter Ely:say? It's an I have a different slightly different take on this going back to the friendship side of things. Because I read a thing that said that married men tend to have their friendship circle of their partner's partners. So there's so if their wife's or yeah. For their wife's friends bring a husband along
Gary Johannes:Mhmm.
Peter Ely:And that becomes then men's friendship circles. Never having never been married, I've never experienced that. And and I know, like, the 3 of you have. What's your kind of view on that? Is that something that's true?
Peter Ely:And and yeah. What's your kind of view?
Gary Johannes:Yeah. I think there's a a level of truth in that. I'm either lucky or cursed because I've been married, thought she will be 41 years this year. So I'm not sure if that's lucky or cursed. But, I I can see that, definitely.
Gary Johannes:So I know people through people because of that. You know? So I think there can be some value in that. There's a no. It's just saying that married people live longer than the people who aren't married.
Gary Johannes:So we can go, is that because they've got companionship? Because we know, you know, one of the things that they need to be more interested in this particular subject is the mental health aspect of being someone who had few or no friends because the the isolation you were talking about earlier, if that was a a continuous theme in your life, it would take between 7 10 years of your life. It's literally more damaging to your physical life existence than smoking 15 cigarettes a day. That lack of interaction.
Peter Ely:Yeah.
Gary Johannes:So friendship is quite heavily bound, and we do but I don't know what friendship that that for me that there's a difference between friendship and and and mates and colleagues because all of that, as I think you said earlier, has a place and has an importance in our well-being, that whole tribe, you might say. So, yes, we might I I've got my wife's got friends, and I know they're partners, but they're people I know, not people I have friendships with. Mhmm. But I if I'm at an event and that happened to be there, I can talk to them. I don't have that difficulty, you know, oh, your manager such and such.
Gary Johannes:We just have a good chat about whatever. That's not like going to a play date and going, oh, there's another bloke over there. And I wonder some of that, because obviously, you know, particularly thinking about Christopher. One of the things is if you go to because I've done the school ones and things. I used to stand there like a spare whatever because it's I don't know if I could speak to anyone.
Gary Johannes:If I speak to someone, and they're just gonna as a man and I speak to another man, it's almost more threatening. Are they gonna tell me the f off? Where a woman connection to another woman, they don't have that same masculine, I need to be the alpha male and do I you know? So, you know, that they don't I don't think they have the same fear of the aggressive response if if I've got it wrong. And some of that might come from that whole social expectation.
Gary Johannes:What are you doing at a children's pie? You're a man. But then I was thinking about my about Christopher. I don't know about you 2. I went to a little boy's school, so this doesn't really count for me.
Gary Johannes:But when you was 14, 15, were most of your friends female? Did I know Christopher's were?
Peter Ely:No. Yeah. Mine were.
Chris Johannes:Mine were.
Gary Johannes:So how does that teach you how to make friends with men? And if you then go into the next stage, as you grow into your twenties, they will go and get boyfriends and husbands and whatevers, and you can't have a friendship because that's not seem right. So you those friendships go, but you've now not learned how to make friends with guys. That's not
Benn Baker-Pollard:a problem for me. Everyone has a gay boy, don't they?
Gary Johannes:No. You I
Benn Baker-Pollard:don't pose a I don't pose a threat to their husbands.
Gary Johannes:No. I guess not.
Chris Johannes:I mean, I yeah. That's definitely true
Gary Johannes:for me.
Chris Johannes:As you said, I definitely had a lot of female friends and still do connect with women much easier than I do with men. I you know, even as an adult, that still comes more naturally to me. I just connect better with women, than I do with men. I'd I I haven't really got the answer as to why, but it does sometimes pose issues, you know, and that's not just from the fact that, they go off and get boyfriends and husbands, and then you're seen as the oh, what are you doing being friends? But then also from, my point of view.
Chris Johannes:So when I've got married back in the day, and it was like, why have you got female friends? What you you know, there was that level of is you know, you that they made you feel like you couldn't have female friends. And, you know, that that you can call that healthy relationship or not either way. That is still something that lingers with me now. I sometimes feel guilty for having overly friendship friends with girls because it's like always my am I gonna get accused of something here?
Chris Johannes:Am I gonna get accused of trying it on or something?
Gary Johannes:From either from my brain. He said Yeah.
Chris Johannes:From my brain. But I wanted to go back to Peter's point though. Sorry. About the, making friends with your partner's partners. And that is, I think, definitely true.
Chris Johannes:And I don't think there's anything wrong with that because it breaks down those barriers between that standing at the school gate, hesitantly trying to make conversation with somebody. Whereas if somebody had been brought in for you almost, you you kind of you're both in the same boat and you kind of just make the most of it. Sometimes you'll get on, sometimes you won't. And, you know, I don't think it's a bad thing. It's almost like being set up really, isn't it?
Chris Johannes:But, you know, I think that's a lot more common than you than we all think. And that's okay.
Gary Johannes:You think it's all good now?
Benn Baker-Pollard:I I I think it's so when Pete said that, I thought about my relationship, obviously, married to a man. But, also, I think the jobs that that we've done have played a a negative part in that because we always were kind of shifts in the night. Mhmm. Working different shifts, different patterns, and end up with 2 different social groups. And put the dog in the mix, going on a night out, we always ended up really doing it separate to each other.
Benn Baker-Pollard:Yeah. Because the other one was looking after the dog or doing whatever. I'm gonna go out with these people. Plus, I know from Ash's point of view, he found everybody in, like, the job boring as hell because when you're out, inevitably, you talk about the job.
Gary Johannes:Yeah.
Benn Baker-Pollard:And that's just it happens in all anything you do, really. But he'd be like, I can't be bothered. I can't listen to any more about that. I don't wanna come. And I get that.
Benn Baker-Pollard:So whilst we have a small group of friends that we've met together in a in a smaller circle that we do stuff with now, we still equally have fairly big friendship groups that are separate to each other, that don't mix. So I maybe if it was with kids in the mix and we were going to the school and meeting other parents and doing that whole piece, maybe we'll that that circle would grow slightly differently. But, yeah, I you really made me think, Pete. I was like, we don't we don't actually really do that and never have. And I'm not sure a 100% why.
Benn Baker-Pollard:Maybe the reasons I've just given is what what springs to mind, but I'm not sure.
Gary Johannes:Well, I can say almost the same. So we live we live in the same place. We've lived for 30 odd years. So most of my wife's friends are from being other moms of children in our area, but but I was worked away. I was so I don't know any of the people.
Gary Johannes:They talk about people and so and I and I'm sitting there listening to conversations. I'm now listening to conversations between my grown up children at the moment, and they go, oh, yeah. That's the child of such and such. So I'm not, I don't know what you're talking about. They live next door, do they?
Gary Johannes:You know, because I was never at home. I was always away. So I never so in a very similar way, I never built those relationships. We had a few people which we were very close to, and we got very close to, but not really. Mhmm.
Gary Johannes:You know? But all the other thing was is when you're in your twenties, you generally find your life partner. Or do you think you do? So I remember being in the air force, and I had loads of mates. I was drinking every day, loads of that.
Gary Johannes:And I met her now as my wife, and they didn't exist. All of a sudden, buttons got switched, and that was it. And I I focused on on my my girlfriend and everything what comes with that, and that was the center of my universe. And I I was probably like, yeah. You don't exist anymore.
Gary Johannes:Moved on. So you lose contact with your friends. And if you haven't got a really good friendship, which I didn't mind was all transient, any potential friendship was lost in that space. And then I just wonder whether with the things of Ben, you come from up north, don't you? You're you're Yorkshire.
Gary Johannes:Yeah. Right? You now live in Kent and work in London. You know, I come from South London and now live in East Anglia. Peter Christopher comes from Peterborough and now lives in Lincolnshire.
Gary Johannes:So we put massive distances between everybody where we used to know everybody because we grew up with them, went to school with them, now live with them, work with them. So you was able to find your space within your tribe. Now nobody saves the job for more than a couple of years, so everything has to be transient. Relationships generally don't last as long as mine, so everything has to be transient. Now everything's AI.
Gary Johannes:So definitely everything's transient.
Benn Baker-Pollard:I haven't got an AI bride or anything yet there, Gary. I think that's a bit too fired.
Gary Johannes:VR. Not far away. VR. Many people doing this sort of stuff with VR. I mean, you know
Chris Johannes:I think you made a couple of interesting points there to get to get us back on the subject of about friendships and stuff about okay. So I think it's quite clear that there's different we've got very many different perspectives here. That's why we have all 4 of us here. But a couple of things you said were about working away and about moving around g the country and things like that. As you grow up, you move to different parts of the country.
Chris Johannes:I think commuting, the fact that commuting is so much of a big thing now, so easy as well, a lot of people work at least half an hour away from where they live. At least a half an hour's drive. A lot of people, massive percentage of people. So, you know, where you work and where you live, the people at work and the people who are around where you live aren't connected. So, you know, you make friendships at work, and then you may go, oh, I I actually quite like you.
Chris Johannes:Do you wanna meet down the pub after work? And it's like, well, no. Because I live half an hour in the other direction. So actually, we live an hour apart from each other. Where would we meet?
Gary Johannes:Well, Ben Ben, you must have said that because you did commute from Kent into working in the police force in London. I don't know about Peter.
Benn Baker-Pollard:Yeah. I think, you know, London Central London becomes our focal point for meeting because it's it's the hub where everybody can get to, easily. So, often, if you wanna do stuff, it's Central London.
Chris Johannes:Yeah. And that's easy for everybody to meet because the public transport going always and everything like that. So it's easy for you to meet.
Gary Johannes:But for some of the boost trucks
Chris Johannes:in such a, built up area that's got that access Mhmm. If you live an hour away from somebody, where would you meet it? So if I for me, I live in the middle of nowhere. You know? So it's There's
Gary Johannes:no there's no public transport. No. You can't you can't drink. So you can't drive. There's no social to it.
Chris Johannes:And it becomes it becomes a challenge to just be able to get out socially.
Benn Baker-Pollard:Well, let's bring that back a second. There's no social
Chris Johannes:because you can't drink.
Gary Johannes:Well, what?
Peter Ely:I did hear. You did hear.
Benn Baker-Pollard:No. Hold on a second.
Gary Johannes:No. But the expectation Kristen has talked about meeting up at the pub, And the expectation of going out with the lads for a night out, you know, you would most people you you know, they talked about designated drivers and that, but we all nobody lives together. They don't have that. For you going into Central London, how long does it take you to get into Central London?
Benn Baker-Pollard:50 minutes
Chris Johannes:on the train.
Gary Johannes:50 minutes. So you will travel for an hour. How many times do you have to change? No. One train straight in.
Gary Johannes:Straight into King's Cross or Saint Pancras, but then you're gonna go to Central London. So you're gonna go Yeah.
Benn Baker-Pollard:Then tube tube. Yeah.
Gary Johannes:So 2 different things. To go and meet up for a coffee.
Peter Ely:Well, no. No. It
Benn Baker-Pollard:depends on what you're doing, but I'd do it. I'd do it to meet for a coffee. I meet my sister up in town and stuff for that. I'd do that. It's a mission,
Gary Johannes:but I'm glad to do
Chris Johannes:it. You make the effort, which is which is fantastic.
Gary Johannes:But if you had somebody lived on the same street
Benn Baker-Pollard:Yeah. You see them a lot more, obviously. Like I see Claire quite
Gary Johannes:a bit.
Benn Baker-Pollard:Because it's 20 minutes drive, and we can meet for coffee easily or go for a walk.
Gary Johannes:And that's the difference. So you then have to plan all your friendships, and everybody has to be available to be able to travel and get in. And, that's what Christopher said earlier. So it's harder. So how do we make friendships easier?
Peter Ely:So it's a brilliant point, Gary. And one of the one of the things that he's mentioned is being a bit more organized. One of the things I I've started doing because for because we have these busy lives, time just flicks by. And I try and make a monthly regular meeting with friends. And whether that be getting a few of my friends who don't know each other together or whether that be doing one to ones with people, but I try and make a a concerted effort that each friend will try and meet at least once a month.
Peter Ely:Because otherwise, it's really quickly you haven't seen someone for almost 3 months and the years are just going like that.
Chris Johannes:Yeah.
Peter Ely:So if you can be a little bit more organized, these are great tip for people to to try and arrange those meetings, whether it's for a beer, whether it's for a coffee, whether it's to go bowling or all of the possible activities.
Gary Johannes:How how do you stop feeling down, maybe even pissed off, that that person is always busy. They genuinely want to meet you, but they're not organized, or they're just that busy. They've got family. They've got life. They've got business.
Gary Johannes:So there, you're putting yourself out how many times you put yourself out. Because what you're saying is to have good friendships, you have to lead it.
Peter Ely:There has to be a leader. It doesn't always have to be you, but there has to be a leader. And and as long as there is a leader, I always talk about one of my my best friend in the world. When we were younger, he would just phone me up and he'd say, I'm going to Cuba. This is the date I'm going.
Peter Ely:This is how much it costs. And I'd give him the money and go, fantastic. Let's go to Cuba. Other people will be sitting and going, well, can you change the dates? I don't quite fancy Cuba.
Peter Ely:I don't fancy and it was like, well, you organize it then. There has to be a leader. If there's a leader, then people will follow. You're right. Some people will be busy and they won't always be able to make it.
Peter Ely:But if your friendship is there, you just be consistent with it and you keep trying until they do become available. Because at some point they will reach out and say, sorry. I've been a rubbish friend. I'm here for you now. And I've been the rubbish friend.
Peter Ely:Mhmm. But I've also been the leader.
Gary Johannes:So then you go
Chris Johannes:back to just making the effort, doesn't it? Ben, you seem like you've you've got it now. You're bloody good at it. And I don't think you might take that for granted a little bit, if I'm honest, because it is hard when when you haven't got that nailed. When you haven't got that, you you know, it's hard to make that first effort when it doesn't come naturally.
Chris Johannes:And I think it is like you said, Peter, it's just dedicating that time. If it's important to you I mean, some people quite like not having friends. You know? That's down to them. But if it's important to you and you want to maintain friendships, which will inevitably create more friendships, you just need to make the effort, I think.
Chris Johannes:You know?
Benn Baker-Pollard:It's an investment, isn't it?
Chris Johannes:Yeah. You know? Yeah.
Benn Baker-Pollard:You have to make the investments to reap the rewards from it.
Gary Johannes:But it's very difficult when you haven't been there for a while to step into because you have to make yourself a little bit vulnerable.
Chris Johannes:So my suggestion now would be, I've got probably one very close friend. I should make more effort with him. And then that will get the good practice going and hopefully create more friendships and expand through that, and I'll be more comfortable with it. But, you know, that would be my suggestion. That's it's something I'm taking away from this today.
Gary Johannes:Yes. Well, a scientific fact is where there's no such thing as people don't want any friends because we have to be part of a tribe. We have to be part of big somewhere bigger than ourselves. Our biology says so. However, we can convince ourselves that we prefer to be on our own because it's safer because we're now in that space to go out and create new in putting ourselves in a vulnerable place because we haven't now got it.
Gary Johannes:So it's, we need friends, otherwise, it's not good for our well-being, full stop, physical and mental. But how do we now create it? And we can convince ourselves we're better off being single, better off being alone, better off being this, but it is stepping into that space. So it's how do we make it you're right, Christopher, Find something you can do easily. Some taking charge almost.
Gary Johannes:But what's a what's a small step for those people who are sitting there going only I wish I could, but I, I like being on my own or I don't know how I'd love to have a friend. I'd love to have more friends. What can we do? Where's that simple step?
Peter Ely:So I think technology plays a big part in that. And one of the one of the bits of advice that I've kinda seen that I really liked is reach out to your friends when you think of them. So if you if you just if you see something in the shop that makes you think of a friend, say it. It doesn't have to be a gushy thing, but just send them a message. Alright.
Peter Ely:How you doing? Yeah. It's a really nice easy one every day. Now it might be that they then ignore you, but you keep doing it. Eventually, they're gonna say hello back.
Gary Johannes:Yeah. So it's not getting downhearted when you don't get that response.
Peter Ely:A 100%.
Gary Johannes:Because you're not doing it for the response. You're doing it because they're their friend, and it might be the thing what makes their day Yep. Even if they don't respond. So it's understanding why you're doing it. It's quite often because a lot of people are doing it because I thought, well, they're showing and reach out.
Gary Johannes:But actually reach out because someone else might be good. What Christopher said earlier, where his friends bring through a massive brand, but Christopher didn't know about it because he hadn't connected.
Peter Ely:Yeah.
Chris Johannes:I think one thing as well, one small thing. Don't be too proud. You know, we could sit here and give people advice on all the different groups you could go to, you know, you know, find what you're interested in, find a go go to a group that does that. You know, the stuff that everybody knows has always been a thing, and everybody's heard it all before. But I think we're a little bit too proud to go and do that.
Chris Johannes:We're a bit or scared, you know, but we we might be a bit too well, I I I'm not gonna go on a website to find a friend. I mean, I'm not that sad. You know? Don't be so proud. I mean, what have we got to lose?
Gary Johannes:Yeah. You're right. It's it's funny because I like I said, I've been on your back. So I've been married for years. If I was become single, I there's no way I'd go on a dating site because I think think but then some of my best friends in the world have found the loves of their life through dating sites.
Gary Johannes:So I'm being a hypocrite.
Peter Ely:Yeah. I
Benn Baker-Pollard:think what's really important in all of this, and I've had this conversation with a few people, and it comes back to be genuine with who you are.
Gary Johannes:And genuine. Be comfortable who you are.
Benn Baker-Pollard:And that and I've had so many people, and I've said to people that I'm really comfortable with who I am, and I know who I am. And people go, that sounds really arrogant. And I say, it's not arrogant It's complicated. If you understand who you are but appreciate everybody else for who they are. If you it's arrogant when you impose yourself and your views on other people and think you know best.
Benn Baker-Pollard:That's arrogant.
Gary Johannes:Yeah.
Benn Baker-Pollard:But I see so many people searching to try and understand who they are as an individual. They're gonna be searching for the rest of their lives the way they carry on, and they've gotta start accepting with who you are.
Gary Johannes:But that was me for until I was in my forties.
Benn Baker-Pollard:You know, you don't have to compromise yourself for other people.
Gary Johannes:It it's very interesting because I cannot tell you the exact moment everything changed for me. I I wear or have worn a suit of armor most of my life, protecting the real me, because I come from a really hard place. I've talked about it before, and I'm a big softie. So I've had to wear this suit of armor not to get eaten alive and not to show that I've got any softness about me. And then somebody just saw straight for me.
Gary Johannes:One day, it was at an event, and they went, I can see who you are. And most of you know that. Well, all of you know that. And it's just like, wow. And then it was working with these people who were totally accepting of me being me.
Gary Johannes:And that's why I trained as a therapist is where I should always have been. But I was always terrified of going there because of the judgment from the people who weren't worth judging me, but I was always and now I realized that all those people I was terrified of judging me for being me had no value in judging me, had no right to judge me. And it was, it it was I mean, I I still get almost a little bit disappointed in myself that it took me 40 years, 40 something years to realize it. If I realized it when I was 20, I would have been a totally different, much more successful person potentially. But then another really good friend of mine said, the teacher only appears when the student's ready.
Gary Johannes:And I'm like, yeah.
Benn Baker-Pollard:That's very, like, wax on, wax off
Peter Ely:time. So
Gary Johannes:Yeah. But it's like, okay. The teacher pays for the student really. So I was a little bit behind the times. I didn't find myself until I was sort of mid forties.
Benn Baker-Pollard:But when I say really important point. It's the value that you alone attribute to it.
Gary Johannes:Yeah.
Benn Baker-Pollard:That, you know, what people say or give you is the value you attribute yourself to that response. And don't allow I get this is probably my biggest frustration in life, and I can think of a friend right now where he's been run he's having rings run around him, and I've tried to highlight that. I've tried to support him completely blind to it, but he's been taken for a ride. And he's he's already been a burnt one, and he's doing the same path again. And I can't I can't change that for him.
Benn Baker-Pollard:I can't live his life for him. I'll just be there to help him and guide him as it comes through. But he places so much value on what one individual sees and and betrays to him that he's blinded about the genuine value that's applied by everybody else.
Gary Johannes:Listen. I've been there. I've been that person, and I've been there more than once. And it wasn't until I stopped trying to please other people and please myself. I found everybody more pleased with me.
Gary Johannes:Mhmm. Because they got me, and they like me. And it's like, what? You like me? Shit.
Gary Johannes:I never thought anybody did because I always hit me because I didn't I didn't put any value on me. Mhmm. And then when I did, I got friends because before that, I never got any friends. What I wanna because I know we're running at a time. One of the last things I want to say, Christopher, one of the things you said is you need to reach out to friends.
Gary Johannes:I actually think it needs to be a boarder than that. I think we need to reach out to mates, anybody we've had. You know, we are not having friends because we're not reaching out in case they're not friends. So any nice acquaintance is just like, oh, now I saw this, so I thought of you. I saw this, and I saw this, I saw this, I saw you.
Gary Johannes:You know, because we've run into people. Because some of the people I now have as friends are the people who have just done that. They've been generous, and we don't know who's generous and who's got an agenda. The people are generous just reach out for no reason. Nothing at all.
Gary Johannes:There's no agenda. And I think that's what we're gonna Ben's talking about someone else who's got an agenda. So that person is being led by the nose by the other person's agenda. Actually, just being generous is just being generous.
Peter Ely:It's it's really funny. So I've just had a little story about that. I I wrote to a friend recently because his birthday's coming up, and he's, he's married and he's got kids. And I said to him, I know you're married. I know you've got kids, and you're probably gonna wanna spend some time with them for your birthday.
Peter Ely:But if you wanna meet up before then, just for a beer and a catch up and a happy birthday chat, please let me know. And his response was, are you okay? Because I'd never reached out to him for such a long time. His response was, are you okay? And I was like, yeah.
Peter Ely:I'm okay. But it's it's lovely that there's that response back. But I think that sometimes the worry as well is that are people going to think that we're not okay. And we're not being genuine.
Chris Johannes:I think. Well, I think my, my, yeah, I think my part in no, a bit are kind of on the back of that, and it's you know, do reach out because this is you know, why we're why we're doing this podcast about friendship today is because people do struggle. We've struggled. You know? So do reach out to them people because men do talk when you listen.
Chris Johannes:So reach out to them. Not not just the ones you think might need it, just all of them. Reach out because you might need it. You know? That's my part, you know, on friendships.
Benn Baker-Pollard:Smile's gonna be really simple. Smile. Because if you walk down the street smiling, someone will smile back, and you'll probably get an interaction from it too.
Gary Johannes:I think I think it's reaching out to anyone and everyone and just just being generous, whether that's a smile, whether that's a message, whether that's an invite, or whether it's just going, you know, it crossed my mind today. Just be generous. I and I think going back to what I found myself and I trained as a therapist, nearly everyone I knew laughed at me, And I could've given up at that point, but I knew I was gonna be good at what I was. So, yes, the first time, and then every one of them became clients of mine because they realized, oh, no. This is who you are.
Gary Johannes:So it's just sticking with it. Just not just messaging once.
Benn Baker-Pollard:Yeah. Be genuinely interested in the other person and you'll probably get some response back. Well, that comes to the end of this week's episode. Thank you again for listening. So goodbye from me and see you in the next one.
Gary Johannes:Yeah. Goodbye from me. Thank you very much.
Peter Ely:Goodbye from me. Have a lovely week, everybody.
Chris Johannes:It's goodbye from him. Oh, no. Sorry. Goodbye from me.
Benn Baker-Pollard:I was hoping someone would do
Chris Johannes:Have a good one. Make friends.
Gary Johannes:Thank you for listening to the podcast that proves men do talk.
Benn Baker-Pollard:If you would like more information or support, then please visit inspired to change dot biz,
Peter Ely:where you can learn more about us and the Inspire to Change team.
Chris Johannes:And remember, the conversation continues on our social media at inspired mentalk.
