Men Do Talk
Gary: [00:00:00] Welcome to Inspired Men Talk, the podcast where men do talk. Today's topic is Okay, let's talk. On today's podcast we have four very different perspectives. From Gary, the old fart business owner. Peter, the rollerskating funny man. Ben, the straight talking gay cop. And Chris, the bushcrafting family man. So I'm Gary and I've been a business owner for well over 20 years and in that time I've done and dealt with many many stuff and I've really changed my perspective over the last few years.
Gary: I'm Benn,
Benn: and I'm basically a gay policeman, but I talk straight about life. I've been around the block a few times. I'm only 37, but I joined the police at 18, and that's given me an insight into life that a lot of people don't have. I also work in the Frontline Ambulance [00:01:00] Service as a volunteer, so hopefully I bring a different perspective.
Peter: My name's Peter. I'm an ex stand up comedian. I worked in the security industry managing people for just over 20 odd years. And yeah, I bring a different perspective to Gary and Ben too. Cool. I'm
Chris: Chris. I'm the young blood of the group. I've got three young kids and I also teach pre teens bushcraft skills.
Chris: I feel like I can bring a different insight with the work I do within youth organizations
as
Gary: well. Thank you guys. Hopefully everybody will be able to recognize who you are and what you do. Today's subject is Let's Talk. One of the things we hear all of the time as men is that men don't talk. So how do we feel about that as men who do talk?
Gary: Peter, how do you feel about it?
Peter: So, I was born in the 70s and [00:02:00] back then when I was raised it was very much you don't talk about your emotions, you keep your emotions hidden. And... that I felt as growing up and in my 20s, it kind of left me feeling quite lonely. Because I became very guarded and I wasn't able to be open with people.
Peter: I found it very, very difficult and it made building relationships quite difficult, even though I had some very close friends who I'm still friends with today. It took a long, long time for me to be able to feel comfortable sharing my emotions with them. So I kind of understand why that perspective was there.
Peter: More recently now as I've got older, I've been able to open up more and be freer in talking about who I am and how I'm
Gary: feeling. Okay, thank you. Ben, how does it make you feel when you hear that men don't talk? [00:03:00]
Benn: I think from a bit like Peter, from growing up albeit I'm obviously a different generation, my family and my dad was particularly from the same sort of era as the 60s and used to be in the military.
Benn: And growing up as a kid, it was very much, you know, the boys don't cry kind of mentality. We get on with life and you sort out your own problems. And I think that's kind of something that's still there today. If I take it to when I worked in the police force, it was very much around. The incidents we'd see and deal with would be don't talk about it.
Benn: Or if you do talk about it, you can talk about it down the pub, but then it's over and done with. Go have a pint and then just crack on with life. It's all going to be fine. And reality is it's not fine. And, you know, police officers commit suicide because they can't cope with situations that they've experienced and can't talk about it.
Benn: And there's definitely a stigma as well that, you know, is a weakness. Reality is, is that. Everybody in life needs to be able to download what they're feeling, what they're [00:04:00] thinking, and have some
Gary: relief from it. Okay. Christopher, for somebody who works with people who are teenagers and pre teens, and being a younger man yourself, certainly then, The old fart who's sitting there talking to you.
Gary: What does the term men don't talk you with? It's
Chris: interesting because I kind of feel like being that bit younger, I've kind of grown through that along with technology, that change in that attitude where, yes, when I was a teenager, perhaps I did keep a lot to myself, but then as I've matured and the way we see things has changed, I feel like I can be quite open.
Chris: My family were always quite open when I was growing up. So I feel like I can talk. And when you hear men don't talk, it kind of makes you think, well, hang on, am I... Pushing it a bit too quickly. Maybe I need to hold a little bit back because I don't want to be that weird one if everybody else is saying, man, don't talk, maybe I'm stepping out of the box a little bit too much.
Chris: So I want to hold back a little [00:05:00] bit. Does that make sense? But yeah, I feel like I've grown through that transition. I mean, kind of with the internet and with technology, as that's grown through the nineties and noughties, I think the attitude has changed as well. So I've sort of seen that shift slightly.
Chris: And I feel like I can talk to people, it's just knowing who to talk to sometimes. And I like to make sure that I can be open to talk to as well. And especially working within the youth organisations and working with teenagers, I like to make sure that I can be open to talk to, and that's an interesting
Gary: thing as well.
Gary: It's interesting because out of everyone, I'm the old man here. And I grew up... One, I grew up in South London in a very harsh environment, but also I grew up in the 60s and early 70s was and any level of vulnerability just showed you as weak. So, having a mental health [00:06:00] issue, having, you know, reacting negatively to anything you came across or you were suffering, which just showed up, because you was a weak person.
Gary: You was perceived as incapable and weak. So, you just pushed through it, even though it made you completely vulnerable, you never showed it. And there's a lot of people my age group who don't know how to show how they feel because nobody did and nobody said it's okay to talk. So it was a very different lifetime.
Gary: And then anybody who now talks. Many people in my age group, because they don't understand it, still see it as a negative. Because we were told having a mental health issue, having anxiety or depression was [00:07:00] weak. Now I know it's not. But many people my generation and older still will perceive. People talking this week.
Gary: So they actually, like men don't talk. Some of them do, I think. Yeah. I mean, Peter, as a standup comedian, how did that, men don't talk fit with that. How did it make it easy or harder?
Peter: I think I, I, so I used to perform as a character in my, in my standup comedy because I didn't feel confident enough to talk as myself.
Peter: I, I felt if, I, I would speak as a character because it was, it was kind of a, a barrier, a layer of protection so that if I got rejected by people for not laughing, it wasn't me, it was the kind of the character. So from a, from a stand up perspective, I think it, it was always something that I'd hidden my true self and again, I think that's just something that I [00:08:00] was kind of, it, it, it stemmed from my childhood
Gary: upwards.
Gary: But is that not a. a comedic thing to do, or was it actually a level of a layer of protection?
Chris: Yeah,
Peter: you're right. People do character comedy all the time, but for me, it was actually a protection. So I'd started doing some stuff as myself. And then just felt like I couldn't share, and so the character was born out of necessity, not out of creativity.
Chris: Was that the question?
Gary: Go on.
Chris: Sorry, it's interesting. Do you feel like that sometimes falls into real life as well? Not just in the stand up? Do you feel like sometimes you put on that character just going about your day to day? Because I think you're guilty of that.
Peter: Yeah, there definitely were times when I was at work and I, I would put on the manager persona.
Peter: It's, it's strange. I, I did I had to do a psychometric test type thing. It was [00:09:00] like a Myers Briggs test thing. And you assess yourself in work and you assess yourself out of work. And the person, the person that marked it said to me, oh, you've come, you've scored like a schizophrenic. And I said, oh, well, that makes sense.
Peter: I said, because at work, I'm this very professional person and outside of work, I'm like a five year old child. And that's kind of what the results showed that, yeah, I was putting on. very much this suit of armor every day to go to work. And I wasn't really being me. I was being Peter, the security person.
Chris: And I think we all do that in different walks of life. I suppose it's the difference between, I've got to act differently in this environment, or I've got to change because I'm not
Benn: happy. I think the element, though, particularly now, and you mentioned it, Chris, about social media and kids, everything's in social media nowadays.
Benn: So I think there is, you know, it's that competition to be, you know, these people keep up with the trends, be [00:10:00] whoever is in the latest trend, and not show those signs of weakness. And we also see, actually, an awful lot that comes around in terms of All this bit about men don't talk, men do talk, how, how is it managed, what's good mental health, what's not.
Benn: It kind of creates a barrier in my view that people don't know what they should be, you know, because it's too much there. And particularly for the younger kids in life growing up, what's right, what's wrong, you know, there's so many different options there now. I guess one sense it was probably not right if we look back at, you know, from generations where perhaps the old fart's grown up in and, you know, roller skating Pete the same.
Benn: But there was clear blinds between the roles and definitions that maybe men should be doing, albeit that there wasn't necessarily an acceptance for the space to talk. Nowadays, I think, there's no sort of clear directional agenda for anything. [00:11:00]
Gary: Yeah, from being the old fart, I think. It, there was a comfort of we knew where we had to be and what we had to do, even if we didn't like it, we still had a place, and it wasn't the right place, and with that, you know, history has borne that out.
Gary: However, you know, we don't know if the pendulum swung too far, because We now don't know whether we should talk, shouldn't talk, who we should talk to, who we shouldn't talk to. It's, it's becoming very complex, but what I know is I talk openly about how I feel. You all guys do, I know you all well and you do.
Gary: And I see as a mental health practitioner, I see lots of other men who need to talk about their stuff. So forcing
Benn: people to talk about it there when they don't need to, do you think that's the latest trend? Do you think it places an additional layer of pressure on people to actually think I've got to talk about this when equally there's [00:12:00] nothing wrong with keeping things to yourself sometimes?
Gary: Well, Christopher was talking when we spoke earlier about whether people want to talk or whether they feel their information is worthy of sharing.
Chris: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think sometimes you get in this trap with, okay, my problems aren't that bad. Let's not bore the world with them. And I think that's quite a common theme that runs through a lot of people I've spoken to when, I mean, they're quite happy to say, yeah, I'm struggling, but I'm not going to bore you with all my problems.
Chris: I think that's quite common. So it is okay. We're happy to talk, but. Who do we talk to and how do we talk about it? Because actually, there's a layer of guilt, I think, when you've got issues, particularly, I know I'm guilty of this, you, if you've got a problem, you're kind of guilty that you, that's the problem, because it's [00:13:00] in the big scheme of things doesn't seem that big.
Chris: And I think that creates. It's a barrier of being open about it.
Peter: Yeah, I'd actually kind of support that and say, yeah, you're right. When you look in your life and you think, well, I've got a roof over my head. I've got food in the fridge. Am I really that bad? And am I really, you know, am I really that broken?
Peter: And I know that's kind of where I was at times, where I thought, well actually I'm not as bad as other people, do I really have the right to
whinge?
Gary: How does that make you feel Ben? You literally put a uniform on to protect yourself every day for 18 years, so surely you're better off than the rest of us.
Gary: Am I? Well that's the pigeonhole isn't it? No,
Benn: the reality is, yeah, you put you put a uniform on and you go out and you deal with things and I'm not going to lie. It does create a allows you if you if you do it that way to have a disconnect between home and [00:14:00] work. It doesn't. When you put the uniform on, you step up into this role that you're going to be delivering for the next 8 to 12 hours or however long it's going to be and.
Benn: It is a shield to some degree, but it doesn't stop you being affected by the things that you see and the pressures that you face. You know, I can talk about incidents that have stuck with me. I've been in that position where actually I felt broken. I couldn't, I couldn't rectify it from, you know, seeing, seeing a young boy die and having to resuscitate them and some other people again, young kids.
Benn: Die in some really tragic incidents and they've stuck with me for a long, long time. The answer and the solution to that was go down the pub, have a beer, turn up for shift the next day and crack on. And that's all well and good, but it doesn't help you deal with it when it keeps popping back up in your brain.
Benn: I used to use an analogy when I used to talk about it, I used to tag it and bag it. And [00:15:00] basically I used to sort of in my mind visualize that all that. I dealt with in that job, would go in a bag, I'd seal it up, and essentially file it in my brain, all. We check it in the property store, but with those particular incidents, they, the bag kept on bursting open and I'd have to
Gary: clear it up again.
Gary: But they're, they're quite significant incidents. So people can go, well, of course that's going to happen. But Christopher was earlier talking about feeling guilty. But his issues, his worries, his concern wasn't as important as what you've just described. But on a day to day, because in 18 years you've got things what pop up and things which are just day to day.
Gary: So on day to day stuff, how did you square that circle of actually If what I see as a policeman, what I do as a policeman, the pressures I'm under as a policeman or working in [00:16:00] the security business when you've got lots of staff to manage and look after, how do you square that circle about the pressures you're under on a day to day basis compared to somebody who is dealing with their own stuff?
Gary: Is it important to find to you or did you go there's other people with bigger issues? For
Peter: me, it was always. There's other people and I, I ignored my mental health for a long period of time. I was a manager of people and I was very much driven by they need to be okay. They provide the service to the clients.
Peter: All I need to do is look after them, but then kind of forgot that I needed to look after myself as well.
Gary: But when you recognized that, did you do anything about it, or was that, oh, I can't show weakness in the face of a, you know, a bunch of staff? I, yeah, I mean, I would, I would [00:17:00] never show weakness in front of the staff, and I think, kind of, when I realized it, it was when I was on, The way down and luckily I had some fantastic support from some HR people that, that helped, they kind of caught me before it, it got too bad, but yeah, I, I'd got to the, I'd, I'd started on a downward spiral and, and as I say, luckily someone caught me before I got too far
Gary: down.
Gary: But you didn't catch yourself? No. Ben, how does that fit for you, you know, working both as a paramedic and in, in the police force? How do you shoulder that burden of your own staff you deal with every day? Sorry, I'm
Benn: not, I'm gonna, I'm not a paramedic and I'm gonna put that out there just because I know it's important for people and it's a title that people work hard for, but I work in the ambulance as a volunteer.
Benn: But relating back to what Peter said in terms of. [00:18:00] You know, you, you look out for your staff and your wellbeing and, and you absolutely do, and you do your best to try and catch them, and you make yourself as approachable as you can so that they feel safe and secure in having those conversations to, to tell you what's at they're experiencing, whether it's at work and the pressures they're facing or their home life.
Benn: I absolutely did the same, really, I, I looked after my colleagues or my team, but didn't really look after myself. And, you know, there's a, there's a, an added pressure. I know I've got a few more gray hairs now, but a few years ago, I mean, I think I still look quite youthful today, but I looked like, you know, a kid in police uniform.
Benn: And so despite that, that being a challenge just in the general public side, it's also a challenge internally. Trying to lead teams as a, an inspector, as a super sergeant and supervisor. The old sweat boys in the room. Create this sort of persona that actually you don't know what you're [00:19:00] doing. Or if you, if you have a moment where you would acknowledge that perhaps you, you couldn't cope with something or deal with it, it was, it was like everybody would pile on like piranha and attack you for it and be like, Oh, he needs to go, can't do the job.
Benn: So you put this front up and you ignore your own mental health because you cannot allow people to see the weakness. And you keep trying. Presenteeism. You turn up for work, despite being really unwell. And you do your best to keep battling through and you put this front on until something breaks.
Gary: So who was you putting that front on for?
Gary: The old sweats, as you call them, or your own team, or the public, or yourself? Definitely my, or most of that. I'd say the, everybody in that mix is definitely who you kind of created this persona for. And you kind of just wanted it to be like everything was flowing. Everything's good. Life is good.
Benn: Whatever the challenge comes in, we'll deal with it. It's not a problem. [00:20:00] And yes, okay, we achieved that to a degree, but it resulted in me spending six months on antidepressants. And having to have referrals made and try and get some normality back to address the overwhelming anxiety that I was experiencing.
Benn: And once I realigned that and I finally got the opportunity to speak to my line manager, thankfully, he was a good guy and he kept it confidential.
Gary: Yeah, well, and that's important. Christopher, how does that sort of play out for you now? It's
Chris: interesting because the way I hear you guys talking about the teams you worked in is not that dissimilar to being a dad.
Chris: You know, having three young kids, their priorities much outweigh mine, and I've got to do that, same thing as you guys were talking about, putting on that front that actually I'm okay, and [00:21:00] making sure that they're okay first. You know, you do that. I know that I've done that and you bury everything else so that you can be that strong person in their lives and you put them first and you make sure that everything is good in their life and in their mental well being.
Chris: And you don't really think about your own. Obviously, now going through the stuff that I went through, you realize quite quickly. You've got to help yourself before you can help others. It's the whole oxygen mask on an airplane thing, isn't it? It's putting on your own before you help kids. And that's so true.
Chris: But I know that I've been guilty of burying everything that I've got going on to be there for them and burning myself out. So I think having that, it's about where you can find that space. to actually acknowledge all these things for yourself. And I think that's what a lot of people my age, and I think it's probably the same for you guys, is that you don't know necessarily [00:22:00] where to turn to start with.
Chris: I'm quite happy to talk, but who's going to listen? Who do I talk to? That was always my struggle. So it was be the big strong dad, make sure the kids are okay. They come first and I'll sort myself out later.
Benn: Is it going to, who's going to listen but have your confidence? Was that a factor for you? Did you?
Benn: Yeah, I think so. I mean, it goes back to, are my problems big enough? I mean, there's somebody out there that is willing to listen, no matter how big or small your problems are. And yeah, you've got to have that confidence in them more than yourself. I think, before you open that conversation, I don't know what you guys think about that.
Benn: That's definitely a factor
for
Chris: me,
Peter: 100%. And Gary, sorry Gary, you're a father, does that resonate with you? Yeah,
Gary: but I'm a father, I'm also a brother, I'm an uncle, and... Whoever then in your family network, and I've also got a team, I [00:23:00] work with a team. So whoever needs you to be something, you have to be that for.
Gary: So you, you got to, and some of us naturally take that role of being the person who holds everybody else up. But who holds you up? And that's, it reminds me of that Superman quote where they're falling off the side of the building and Superman says to Lois Lane, it's okay, I've got you. And she says, but who's got you?
Gary: But no one's ever actually said that. In reality, when you're supporting someone, no one turns around and goes, but who's looking after you? Yeah, you know, nobody goes to the policeman and go, Are you okay? You've saved me. Nobody goes to the stand up comedian. You played me laugh. But who makes you laugh?
Gary: Nobody goes to the dad and goes, Oh, wow, you're a great dad. Who, who's looking after you, you know and therefore we don't know. And, and, [00:24:00] and I don't think it's changed very much. Men do talk, men are very happy to talk, but who we talk to and how we talk, I think we're, we're so fragile in that if we lose our status and whether we like it or not, status is really important.
Gary: It's really important from a neuroscience point of view. So we can't. Lose our status as a a leader or a manager or a father or whatever, because we want to be able to support those people and them to have confidence and comfort and security and that we're going to be there. So if we speak to someone, we've got to have confidence.
Gary: That they're not going to destroy the small piece of hope that we've got that we're still going to be seen as valuable. And it's really hard to identify that person. [00:25:00] Sometimes it's easier for some, but for most guys, it's like if I say this, then it's going to come out. Yeah, I think
Peter: that's, that was always a very big one for me is, who's got my back?
Peter: Who's going to keep my confidence? Who's going to keep my secrets?
Gary: Yeah. So how do you pick that person? What do you do to make yourself that person?
Peter: So for me, I make myself available. I give, I give time and, and offer my time. To people so that they know that they can talk to me openly, honestly for as long as they need to.
Peter: And that I've got their back on there holding them up. That's kind of how I, how I purport myself.
Gary: Christopher, you're working with a lot of teenagers and preteens. How do you establish that space where they can have trust in you?
Chris: I mean, [00:26:00] I feel like it's a lot of your own behavior that affects that, but for me, I,
Benn: people
Chris: kind of have confided in me, young people, and I think being separated, being impartial to the rest of their life helps.
Chris: But I think what really shows them is, I don't change when they tell me stuff. I don't treat them differently, so a kid can come up to me and tell me, you know, so and so did this to me yesterday, and I've been really unhappy about it, and I've got really bad anxiety about doing this exam at school, and it's like, that's cool, well, let's talk, what do we, what can we do to help you sort of thing, and then we don't change, we finish the conversation, and hopefully they feel better, but I don't treat them differently afterwards.
Chris: I treat them the same as I would have done any other day. Yeah,
Benn: that's a really important thing, I think, because, you know, that's another element of that fear, isn't it? You tell someone and then you're instantly labelled with, oh, I've got mental health issues. You [00:27:00] can't do it, or don't speak to them, they're a problem.
Benn: So, you know. I mean, for me,
Chris: one of my biggest things is, I don't want somebody to pander to me, just because I'm feeling a bit down. I don't want somebody to patronise me. So, if you tell them, is, are they going to then be careful around you? I don't like that. So I don't do that to
Gary: other people. Ben, you've been a leader.
Gary: Manager, how have you managed to open up your door so people could know they can talk to you, or have you not managed to? I have.
Benn: It's about, well, it's about your leadership. I think if you put your people first, that builds trust and confidence. And if you are consistent with who you are, and you...
Benn: Demonstrate. For me, trust is a massive part of that. Honesty. Having the honesty and the trust. You know, if you don't like something, tell people that you don't like it. [00:28:00] Or, if they're putting a point of view across, you can disagree. You can agree, but do it in a rational response and don't belittle them for it.
Benn: When they do come to you, it might be over something small, initially, that they disclose to you. It's about maintaining their confidence. Because if you breach it, they'll never come
Gary: back. And that's, and that's really important that if someone confides in you, it's holding that space and holding that confidence for them.
Gary: So they know that you're looking after them. You're a safe pair of hands, for a better word. You're genuine.
Benn: And that's another bit, you know, being genuine. How many times do you walk past someone in the workplace or something? And that, you know, how are you? Yeah, I'm good, thanks. Ian, how are you? Yeah, fine, thanks.
Benn: It, no one really cares how you actually are. It's just an extended version of hello.
Gary: Yeah, absolutely. You have
Benn: to take the time to make that conversation meaningful. [00:29:00] Find out a little bit more. The amount of conversations I've had on stairwells and suddenly they, you can see that there's a problem and it's about giving them that safe space.
Benn: Come and have a coffee. I'm busy. We can make 10 minutes to have a coffee. Come and sit in the office.
Gary: But that is another important point. How do you make time to even notice, let alone support? Really
Benn: difficult. I mean, can you even notice for some people? The answer is no. Some people hide it really well.
Benn: Some people put a really good front on you know, this, this character, if you want to go to like Peter's style, where you hide behind something. When you walk out that door, you're happy, you're smiling and people can't see what's going on in your personal life, but you've got to look for those really subtle signs.
Benn: You know, you can see that that perhaps that person is disengaged or the conversation is not flowing where it should be. Naturally. It's awkward. It might be an indicator that there's a little bit more going on. And it's just knowing how to [00:30:00] approach that in a without being confrontational or an overbearing way.
Benn: But just to let them know that if there is anything you're there for
Gary: them. Christopher says something really important earlier is that when he gets one of the younger people come in, they wear their feelings quite openly. Now, I don't know if that's a younger generation thing or just a young person thing, you know, like we was all like that once or whether they're better at it now being open.
Gary: I mean, I think
Chris: with, sorry, I think with the younger people there's, there's so much nowadays talking about anxiety, talking about different things, they, we all go through that awkward stage in life when we're not quite sure how we feel, but there's so many labels now that they can attach to it. A lot of people by the age of 10.
Chris: Have already diagnosed themselves with anxiety because it's a label that they can use to help them understand the way they feel, which I don't necessarily think is very helpful. [00:31:00] But it's, it's strapping a label to it. It's pinning it down for them. But then once they've made that decision, they
Gary: live by it.
Gary: But is it more helpful than not having a label at all and just suffering? That's a really difficult one. Yeah. Or being confused.
Chris: It is a difficult one. I mean, I suppose it depends on how you manage that and how you manage around it. Again, goes back to that, if everybody panders to the label, I can't imagine that being helpful.
Chris: For me, doesn't mean it would be for everybody. I mean, one size doesn't fit all, you know, so it's a tricky one. I
Benn: think you're right as well, because, you know, a young member of my family recently came home to, I'm not a parent, but came home to their mum and said, I think I'm autistic. And I've been worrying about it for a long time and basically listed like, you know, 10 points off the internet that would show you that you're autistic.
Benn: And so again, it comes for me, that comes back to having that honesty, that conversation where [00:32:00] you don't judge them or change how you deal with them and just talk through it sensibly. And then I don't feel like you have to have a label actually. That doesn't apply to you. You're not autistic. But she got so in her own head that she stressed herself out for weeks because of social media, internet, and the fact there are hundreds of labels out there now.
Gary: I think that's definitely got to be a topic of one of our future podcasts. Oh, that we need to look at social media and the impact on, you know, men don't talk or men talk or whatever to finish off because I think we could be talking for hours to finish off what would be nice is if we could all maybe come up with a time or situation or a person where this They really demonstrated that it's okay to be not okay or okay to talk.
Gary: [00:33:00] So I remember doing some mental health training for one of the organizations I was working with and the CEO led the training with talking about Her mental health issues that she'd suffered even though she was now the CEO of a very, very large organization. And very few people who are sitting at the top of a tree will ever talk about, Yeah, I was there once.
Gary: And that changed the whole culture of everything we did from then on. Who, who else has got something like that they can share?
Benn: I think if I look at what, from the police side of it, I've, you know, I recently just delivered a talk to the police. on mental health. Well, I openly admitted to people I used to work with and colleagues that actually I got it wrong.
Benn: I was suffering. And I think it is important, like you say, to share that because it does make it normal. It makes it acceptable to have those conversations [00:34:00] without it becoming a big drama or a big stigma.
Gary: When in the past, Either recent or distant, has somebody else demonstrated that to you? That's a difficult
Benn: one.
Benn: You know, if I, if I look back I, there's one person in particular who's very senior in policing, and they dealt with a very difficult incident. High profile, it's been in the media for a long, long time, there's been several inquests around it, and he delivered a talk on... His experience and the decisions he had to make as a senior leader at the time and he broke down during his presentation was happy to continue to push through that while he was delivering it because it brought it alive.
Benn: It made it real and it was okay to feel it.
Gary: What did that mean to you
Benn: that it is okay to talk? It may, you know, it's refreshing to see that. Actually, I suppose it's two things that yes, it's okay. And it makes it normal acceptable for everybody else in that room to go forward and lead and. [00:35:00] Hopefully lead with that open and honesty, but it also shows that your career isn't impeded if you are honest by it, because that's another big fear, particularly in these organizations that once you get that stamp on your HR file that you might have anxiety or stress, your career, you can't
Gary: progress.
Gary: Christopher, so when has. Anything influenced you? So, whether you've seen somebody demonstrate this, which you, which has changed your perspective of it being okay, really? So, yeah, I
Chris: mean, working in youth organizations for a few years now makes me think of one in particular situation where a young, young lad, His mum actually approached me because he'd got himself into a lot of trouble at school.
Chris: I mean, this was a quite quiet, well mannered young man, but somebody pushed him too far. And he'd got himself into quite a bit of trouble when the police were getting involved. And she came to me and spoke [00:36:00] to me about it just to sort of fill us in on the situation. And you could tell that it was stressing her out so, so much.
Chris: And I just sort of, as she was telling me about it, sort of kept allowing the space for her to open up with it and say, so sort of things like, oh, okay, how are you dealing with that? And let her express that. And I think it was the first time she'd sort of actually gone through it from the, not so much the protective mother needs to look after the child, but actually this is affecting me and somebody is.
Chris: Actually hearing me out and actually letting me put that across and that definitely helped her just being able to sort of make it clear because once she'd said a lot of it out loud, I think it made her feel a lot better and she actually messaged me a couple of days later saying thank you. So, you know, that side of things, it's having that permission, having that space to be
Gary: able to open up the question I'm really asking is.
Gary: What's [00:37:00] influenced you to be able to do that? So in the past, or who have you witnessed, or what situation have you seen where somebody else has stepped in and been the bigger person, the more open person, that went, well, okay, that's okay to do that. That's a quite difficult one, isn't it? Or has it never happened?
Gary: I feel like maybe
Chris: it has, and I take it for granted, perhaps. Yeah, no, it's a hard one. Yeah, nothing comes to
Gary: mind. And that's fine. And it's interesting that as a younger person, you almost take it for granted that it's okay, because lots of people do that now. Where someone, someone as old as me, it's like, oh my God, they're sharing the truth.
Benn: Do you think that's down to your upbringing, Chris? Do you think that's because you were brought up where it was okay to talk? Well, yeah,
Chris: like I already mentioned before, it kind of, I was brought up where it was okay to talk and we were okay to be what we wanted to be. So I feel like, yeah, I do take that example has been there for me from a young [00:38:00] age.
Chris: So it's relatively normal for me.
Gary: Peter, does anything stand out? Anybody in your history or even if it's like on television or something like that where somebody's been just okay with being their truth?
Peter: So, I think it's really strange. When I studied to do stand up comedy, the, the lecturer, the teacher turned around and he said you must remember that this is comedy, not therapy, because you would get a lot of people that would go up on stage And just unload.
Peter: And it was them, you know, telling what was going on in their lives. And it wasn't particularly funny or humorous, but it was their way of being open and being able to talk. I can't think of specific names and I wouldn't, wouldn't call people out anyway, but that was something that was very very eye opening for me.
Peter: that how many people felt that getting up on a stage with a microphone was, [00:39:00] meant that they were able then to talk and to just talk about all kinds of very, very personal things that perhaps they weren't able to talk about in other settings. So I've seen, yeah, that's probably kind of the most prominent thing
Gary: that I've seen.
Gary: Wow. Okay, so I think we've been running this podcast for quite a few minutes now. So part in. Tip for our podcast of men don't talk. What would you say to somebody who's not sure whether they should talk or not? Peter?
Peter: So one, you find someone that you can trust that will hold your confidence and you feel comfortable sharing with and you will probably find that they will want to do the same and just share.
Peter: Because you feel better for it
Gary: afterwards. Fantastic. Ben, what was your parting gift for our listeners? Be I'd say
Benn: times are [00:40:00] changing. It is acceptable to talk and that's becoming more prevalent every day. So yeah, lurk in your circles and find that person you can trust. Or if you really don't feel that you have someone in that, in that circle of friends or work colleagues, then pick up the phone and speak to someone who's a professional about it.
Benn: Don't be afraid to have that conversation because that absolutely will be confidential. It will be bound by that. And sometimes it's nicer to talk to someone who you have absolute, you know, connection to in the slightest and it makes it easier to
Gary: offload. Christopher, what would you say to anybody?
Chris: Kind of go back to something I mentioned earlier and...
Chris: You know put on your own oxygen mask first. I mean, we're all trapped in this persona that we have to hold everything together in as a family man or as a management role or whatever it might be. But, you know, yes, you want to look after the people around you, but you [00:41:00] need to put your own oxygen mask on first.
Chris: and find your way
Gary: of doing that. Excellent. So from my point of view, I think I've got to go from the other perspective, but actually make sure that people know it's okay to talk to you. Don't be judgmental, don't react to people, but make sure people are fully aware it's okay to talk to you. And that would be a real big starting point.
Gary: So from me, Gary, the old fart, And the rest of the team here, Peter, Christopher, and Ben, is thank you. I hope you've enjoyed listening to our first ever podcast of Inspired Men Talk. We look forward to speaking to you on episode two.
