Inspired Men Talk: Breaking the Stigma of Men's Mental Health

Men's Health & Wellbeing
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[00:00:00]

Chris: Inspired Men Talk four solution-focused therapists born in four different decades who openly and honestly discuss their perspectives on the issues

Gary: surrounding men's mental health, the things that

Chris: stigma says we don't talk about. Hello everyone. So this week we're going to be talking about men's health and wellbeing.

So, that's a big, broad term when we talk about men's health and wellbeing. So, just to get a feel from everybody what it means to them, really we'll, we'll see what we think. So, Ben, when we say men's health and wellbeing, what does that mean to you?

Benn: So it covers both things, doesn't it, you know? A lot of it's around what you eat, how you look, do you work out, do you go to the gym, but also I think it's about, do we look at going to the doctors when we need to, or do we avoid it?

Do we get checked out when there's a problem, or do we find that a difficult thing to, to deal with? And in a mental health perspective, do we feel we can talk about it? Kind of the theme of all our [00:01:00] podcasts. Can we recognize when we need to get help? Or do we just bury it and walk away from it and hope it'll all sort itself out?

Yeah,

Chris: and I think that's a true thing with a lot of men. It's not just the mental health that we talk, we talk about that. That's the whole reason we're doing the podcast is we acknowledge that maybe there is a slight issue with men talking about their mental health and well being, but it does go to that physical level as well, I think where

Peter: people,

Chris: men in particular, don't necessarily.

come forward as quickly as they should do when it comes to their physical health, not just their mental health. What do you

Peter: think, Peter? Yeah, I think it's a really good point and I think when we talked about the man flu, there was that study that I mentioned by I can't remember his name now but that doctor from Canada who said that men suffer worse with flu because it's a viral thing and they don't come forward earlier.

So, certainly from a a medical perspective, I know men tend to try [00:02:00] and struggle through and kind of survive. yoU know, my, my view on well being, it's, it's kind of weird because I've gone through times before well being was a term. And I remember the first time that I remember it, I went to a gym and someone talked about wellness as opposed to illness.

And I kind of, it, it, I don't know, it sort of, it made the gym feel weird for me. Because it was never, it was never a term like that before, you know, you'd never, you'd never looked at your wellness. You just, you were in health. Or you were ill, and then this term of wellness and then now well being kind of came into being and it was a bit strange and it felt a bit weird.

I, but I kind of just ignored it and carried on going to the gym. But yeah, from, from my perspective, I think we, I, I said this, I've said this on a couple of our podcasts that I've been very, very lax at coming forward when my health has been poor. And it's got to the [00:03:00] point where I've been sort of almost at breaking point.

And I don't know if that's something for people of my, of my era, you know, where we were born in the 70s and you just kind of, you had to try and work through and you had to try and just get on with things. So, I think, you know, from, from my perspective, that's where, that's where I kind of saw my wellness and my, and my mental health.

What about you, Gary?

Gary: Well, it's interesting because well being was, you only dealt with it if it was, What I now know is acute. So if you broke your leg, you went and got it fixed. Everything else, you just work through it in my head. And in my sort of generation, I think we just work through what now would be an illness or whatever.

And I remember my, my stepdad, who, who died a few years ago. I think he died of prostate cancer. But he never told anyone. And when he got to the point where he was near the end of his life and in hospital, his [00:04:00] testicles were black and just about the size of a football. But he'd never told anyone, he'd never been to the doctors.

He tried to just work through it, to the point it killed him, and I don't know whether it killed him early or not, I don't know if there was any background, but he never dealt with it. Yeah,

Peter: I, I remember my, my father, probably, probably a similar sort of age to your stepdad or close to, and he, he had an accident at work where a piece of glass fell and nearly cut his foot off.

And he, I mean, he had to go to the hospital to sort that out, but, you know, he never mentioned that to me, it was almost like He didn't want me to know that stuff was going on and I think that's a common thread certainly of my age group and, and and maybe people that are a little bit older than me that they've, they don't really want people to see them.

at their worst, or see them as weak, and don't, don't really report those things to people.

Benn: That links in with so like the Daily Mail, they did an article [00:05:00] on, on men and men's health, and, you know, out of a survey of a thousand people that they did, how many do you think actually didn't look after their health, or didn't check it, or put off going to the doctors?

Peter: I'd probably say a high 80

Benn: percent. So three quarters will put off going to the doctor when they show signs of illness? And, you know, if you take that and look at things like testicular cancer um, you know, 44 percent of men aged 18 to 40 have never checked themselves for testicular cancer. And equally a small percentage of people could list a single warning sign of prostate cancer.

Nineteen percent, in fact, couldn't identify one single warning sign of what prostate cancer might be. And it's like their taboo subject, isn't it? That we don't talk about. They can't bring themselves to talk about it. And it does actually say in that article, a lot of people see it as a

Gary: sign of weakness.

I think it's [00:06:00] worse than that for my generation, so it's interesting because I was teaching well being teaching therapy students in Norwich this weekend, and we was in a sports centre as part of Norwich University, and every time we went for a wee above the urinals, there was a thing of how to check.

Yourself for testicular cancer, which I've only ever seen ones around breast cancer before, and it was great to see in this university building a whole picture diagram of how you process and do that whole check in scenario. anD that was really helpful. But I've never seen that before. But I can tell you, different to what you said, Ben, in my generation.

Going for a prostate check was always about having a finger inserted in your back passage, and I can tell you dozens of people I know, men I know, would say I'm not going because they're going to do that to me, and [00:07:00] I'm not gay, with their words, and I'm, you know, there's, I'm not going to put any connotations to it, and checking your own balls would make them feel Or maybe this means I'm, because I'm, you know, I don't know what it means, so I'm not doing it because men don't do it and I'm not gay.

And that's a terrible statement, but for my generation, they didn't do it because that's a bit weird to have someone do that to you.

Benn: It makes me laugh when you say, you know, blokes find it weird feeling their own balls, but yeah, they're happy to have a wank. They're happy to play with that bit downstairs when they want to, but they get to touch it to check to

Gary: see if there's something that could kill them.

And I've never been to a football match on a Sunday where the subs aren't all got their hands down their trousers to try and shoot bottoms, you know. It's a weird thing but it's the connotations, I guess. And hopefully, I mean, Christopher, is that still the case?

Chris: I mean, [00:08:00] it's not like the education and the awareness isn't there, because there's been a lot of push for this kind of thing lately, and over the past few years certainly, so I think they're putting out a lot of awareness, so for me, I don't understand it, I don't understand why people are still in this, Mindset where they don't want to do these things for whatever reasons, because we've been told to certain now.

I've been told since I was at school about these things and how important it is and how normal it is. And it's been very much normalized for me and my generation and I so it baffles me that that's the statistics are still as high as they are. Because how much more can you do with the awareness and education that's already

Gary: being put out there?

I totally agree. But the second part to the question was about well being. And I've always, until I got involved heavily into well being, it was always a very sissy sort of word. [00:09:00] Bit wussy. And it's interesting because I was watching TV. This morning, and Dame Kelly Holmes was on there talking about a new book she's got out and, you know, the struggles she's been through.

And she said when she was winning her double gold medals, she went through a breakdown and she had a breakdown. And she said, when she was in the army, It wasn't talked about. And mental health wasn't talked about. 2006, this dialogue we're having now, was not on the agenda for anyone. So even having those mental health crises, as we now call them, there was no such thing.

It wasn't, you know, she, she said she was the first person of sportswoman, to come out and talk about her mental health. In 2006, it just wasn't done. And I come from the era where, you know, talking about well being, only people with joss sticks, who burn joss sticks and have [00:10:00] feathers in their hair, would be talking about that.

And I remember going business networking. And if you said you was a therapist, you'd lose half the room instantly. They wouldn't talk to you because you was a bit, you know, talking about that sort of weird stuff.

Chris: Absolutely. And where I talk about the education and awareness of the physical health things that men suffer with, that was certainly there.

But this, the wellbeing and mental health is something that is very new in schools and very new.

Gary: I know Doctor Who starts this week, but, you know, that's taken the nick. Who's the new Doctor? It's a guy who was in Sex Education, I think. Black guy. The gay, gay black guy. Oh yeah, I think it is him, isn't it?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Should be fab. Ah, cool. He's gonna add lots of sparkle to it again. Because it's meant to be, Doctors are always meant to be a bit Froot Loop. What are you trying to say? You'd be a good doctor. Gay people are Froot Loops. No, you're not. That's why I took

Benn: away from that. [00:11:00] Did you hear that?

Gay people are Froot Loops. That's

Gary: what he just said. Did that offend you? Wow. Unbelievable,

Benn: Gary. And we've got that recorded as

Gary: well, so. Yeah. Was it offensive? Yeah, it was. Or did I offend you? Because there's a real definition on that. That's offensive.

Chris: Yeah, that was offensive. This could come out as a scandal in a few years time, you

Gary: Well, Colin the Caterpillar's lost his job.

There's been naked pictures of him seen on the internet.

Chris: Jesus.

Gary: Anyway, where were we? So you're talking about the education and you're not having the opinion I have.

Chris: So, yeah, like I said, the education, I think, is They've been there for a while with the physical mental health of men's issues and different things like that, but I think the Education around mental health is still very new it was certainly something we never crossed over when I was at school something we never talked about and you're saying that well being is a bit of a a sissy a girly way of [00:12:00] talking and I think you're still right in that because I mean a lot of my working background is in trades in building and doing things like that, so That environment still has that sort of mentality where you don't talk about mental well being, certainly.

Well being in general is a bit of a girly way to talk about it, you know. I think that is still a bit of a stigma going on now. I don't know if we use that word a lot, stigma, but I think that is still a bit of a thing that's sticking in there. However, saying that, I find a lot of people from my generation are much more active at going to the gym.

much more active doing positive things on their days off, not just vegetating on a sofa. And I think that there's a lot more acceptance of my generation to go out and do different things to strike out of the normal realms. So while the language around it, I think is still a little bit. taboo, and some men are a bit too proud to say it in those ways, I think the shift is slowly happening in [00:13:00] that, in that realm.

People are starting to act differently about their own well being, whether or not they talk differently about it, I don't know. I think, I

Peter: think it's a good point, and I think it's, it's clear that the physical well being has come a long way. And so the whole thing of going to the gym and doing the exercise, that's something that people are really happy to talk about.

But then when you get to the mental well being of things, people then tend to clam up a little bit more. You know, they don't, they won't talk about how those feelings are and what those things are unless they're given the right kind of the space to do it. And, and yeah, I don't know if that's something that will change.

I hope that's something that will change over time because it becomes more normalized. But I think that's with the gym, it's, it's been that way, you know, when gyms first started, you, you didn't really, you didn't see a lot of men going to the gyms and now it is something that they do more of.

Benn: Do you think it's gone too far the other way though?

Because you've got social media now where it's body image central. If [00:14:00] you don't do these things, you're not good enough. And I, again, I saw on the news it was that there was a guy who couldn't go to the gym because He was gay, and he would be harassed and intimidated by the people in the gym and had to set up his own business in order to overcome that.

But, the reality is, is that it should be a safe thing for you to do wherever you are, whoever you are, but yet, he couldn't.

Chris: So do you think that it's not so much people are doing this for their well being, but they're actually doing it To live up to the standards. So it, we, we say that we're doing it for our own good, but actually we're doing it because we're pressured and we feel that we have to have that amazing body or that amazing level of fitness.

I mean, as you can see, I'm at the gym most days. And you only get, you go to the gym, Chris.

Gary: Yeah, most days. Yeah. But what, you're the cleaner. You're the cleaner. 'cause you've obviously never seen the equipment ,

Chris: but, but that is, is it because people. They're not [00:15:00] doing it for the right reasons. Like you said, it's, it's about living to that unrealistic body image.

I mean, I don't think as men, we talk about that enough for a start. This unrealistic body image that we're portrayed. I mean, we can't all look like me. We can't all be Chris Hemsworth.

Gary: But we, that takes us into a completely different field though, because if they're going to the gym for their well being, it's different to going to look right.

And if you need to look what society says you need to look like, then it's a mental health condition as far as I'm concerned. If you're focused on, I've got to keep doing, I've got to keep doing, because I've got to look like this, then are you doing it for the right reasons? Well, I haven't got the stats on it, but I've seen a number of times, and I can't tell you exactly where, that being physically well toned and muscled and, you know, more than normal, is actually detrimental to your [00:16:00] physical health.

So there's a balance. So, you know, overdoing anything is not good for your physical health. But actually, if you're overdoing it, is that a mental health issue? That you've got to keep up with the Joneses? I think it's mental health, 100%.

Chris: I think you're right, but where do we talk about the warning signs for that?

How do you know you're stepping across those lines? I've never, ever heard anybody talk about the warning signs of going down that road. I mean, we know warning signs of eating disorders. We know warning signs of things like that. But when it comes to over exercising, when exercising becomes an addiction or an obsession, Where are the warning signs for that?

Where do we, where do you find those? How, how do you know that you're going there? You could just say I'm super fit and I'm a gym bunny and I need, I want to be a bodybuilder. Where, where does that

Gary: come in? So I don't think it's about over exercising. I think it's Exercise and because I've got to look a certain [00:17:00] way and that will often lead to then misuse of chemicals to because you can't physically train hard enough to look like that.

You just not your jeans just aren't made up like that. You know, I I'm the height I am. I've got the hairstyle I've got because that's in my jeans. I can't really change it unless I didn't get. You know, go for surgery or go for take certain stimulants or whatever so I fit in and you know for me the warning signs are when that becomes more important than any other part of your life.

Yeah, and you see that a lot and you get a lot

Chris: of warnings on like gambling websites and things like that nowadays But again, this is something that's never spoken about these these warning signs of when you're doing something that should be good and healthy When are you doing it for the wrong reasons?

You know that that never really gets mentioned and I think that's a really Important topic to start [00:18:00] educating

Gary: people on someone who treats the gym like I treat anything, which I don't like, which is I stay away from it. It's, it's interesting because they are great for exercise. They are great for health, but it's when that becomes more than that, you know, how do you know you slipped from that?

I'm going to keep fit, so I've got to look like everybody else. One of my biggest pet hates, and I've been to the gym of course Steady. Not, not, not often, not often. During the war. But, so during, steady. But one of the things you see a lot, you get somebody who is really obese, who's really unhealthy, they go, I don't want to be like this, and they go to the gym.

And it's not because they're gay. It's not because they're black. It's not because they've got any obvious thing. They're just unusually unfit, but they've decided [00:19:00] to get fit. And the only place to get that sort of fitness is going to the gym. But then you see people walking around barely clad, flexing their muscles and Intimidating you just because they're looking at you, and it feels like they're judging you, and quite often they are.

I know a lot of people who body shame because they've got a good body. So those people who mostly need it for their well being don't actually go, because going to the gym is really intimidating. And

Chris: I think that's true, even not to those extremes of somebody who's massively overweight or unhealthy. Even for me, because I'm not a regular gym goer, even though I said I was, I'll be honest.

And I'm not the fittest, I'm not going to be the strongest. And you do feel awkward when you walk into a gym and you don't know how to use a piece of equipment. You don't want to ask. I mean, we're men, we're a bit too proud for that, aren't we? You know, and it is awkward, even for somebody who is a basic level of fitness, but isn't super fit [00:20:00] like everybody else in the gym.

And I think there's another thing that we've not mentioned as well. Something that genuinely does put me off going to the gym. Well, I get accused of being a creep because that happens an awful lot in gyms now, being accused of looking at people while they're exercising, looking at women, particularly being accused of.

Doing things like that in gyms, that happens all for a lot nowadays, so it's sometimes can be an environment that you just don't feel welcome, you know, and that is a problem for men's well being.

Gary: Well, Ben said earlier that he's, you know, there's somebody talking about having to set up his own gym because he found it too intimidating.

You're saying it from two or three different perspectives. I've said it. So actually for some of us. Gyms are quite toxic. I think they can be, yeah.

Benn: I think, you know, obviously that comes down to the management of them, but there is, if I said to each of you now, you know, if you think of that bench press in the free weight section in a gym, who do you expect to be there?

It's probably the meathead, [00:21:00] undesirable, arsehole people who go to the gym and create that atmosphere. Yeah.

Gary: It's interesting, you know, because, you know, it, you're saying that the super fit are stopping the unfit getting fit in that scenario. I mean, there was a thousand other ways we can do activity, but actually, if that is a simple solution, the solution is not available because of the atmosphere.

One of the other things changing the subject, Christopher, and I thought you were leading it, Chris, you know. Yeah, that's what I said, Chris. Well,

Chris: connection issues, you know. Getting knocked off

Gary: the perch. I know. So, you know, you lost your chance. But question for, for, so going back to my younger years, they had things called betting shops.

I know they've still got them now. If you went into a betting shop, everybody know you went into a betting shop. So you was somebody who's [00:22:00] gambling. If you went into, there was always what do they used to call them? I think they call, X shops or something like that, private like, private like. Lines or something like that.

And it was a sex shop. You have Ann Summers now. How many men go into Ann Summers? Because it's like, well, I don't want to be judged. And if you take that as a thing. And I'm wondering whether they care for mental health. We have things like man sheds. And different group scenarios, men's mental health clubs.

So if you go into that, does that automatically label you? So are people not seeking help? Because if you walk into that shop, you're now categorised. So, d d does that make sense? I don't know if I've asked that very well. Well, I mean,

Benn: I know, I get what you're saying about the sex shop bit, you know, people walk in, they'd be like, dirty old man, going in a sex shop.

Gary: Yeah. So It's the same thing happening when you [00:23:00] go, there's a man shed. So it's like, oh, I can't let anybody know I'm going there, because they'll think I'm depressed, or they think I've got a major mental health problem. They're going to stigmatize me. I

Peter: think it's a mix. Sorry, sorry Chris. I think it's a mix because what happens is you're right, the physical, I think the physical mansheds, if you're going into a physical place, then yes, people do think that they might get judged.

But because we've got social media now, there are so many social media groups that you can go to and be a part of without actually being judged, because you're in the group with those people that are, that are like minded. And I think that feels a little bit easier for people, because there's a touch of anonymity in the social media world.

Gary: Except everybody knows you're in there, who's in there, because you have to join in yourself. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, I think it's a wonderful thing, but you actually, anything you're putting yourself out for, you've got [00:24:00] to open, you know, open up. Yes,

Peter: but it feels a bit distanced. I think I get I get the impression from talking to people on a few of these groups that they're more comfortable talking about a group because you're not actually talking face to face.

You're talking through the keyboard than the computer. And I think people tend to find that easier. But yeah, I think you're right, Gary. I think it is. It's when when you have those face to face man sheds, it can be very difficult for people to feel like they can access them because Yes. They do have that, that stigma attached.

They don't in society, it's a great thing to do, it's a great place to go, but I think people have that stigma attached in their own minds of them. I find

Benn: that hard. I'm listening. I find that hard to sort of say because I don't feel that I feel that I could just I'll be comfortable going to that. But I'm sure as you say, you know, it is a big issue for people.

I think [00:25:00] it's changing. I feel like the vibes changing. It might be maybe generational more than more than You know, perhaps you and Gary say it. I don't feel like I couldn't go to those things. Maybe that's because I come at it from a therapist point of view as well now. But yeah, I don't know. I'd be interested to actually see what people think about it because I see everywhere I go, like there's, you know, there's banners in the town saying come and have coffee in the morning for the men and let's have a chat.

You know, men's mental health, men's talk, let's do this, let's do that. I know there's multiple walking groups that go out and exercise. And just go for a walk together as a group, whether you're from that same background in a business community or your community. So it becomes, I want to almost say that we've kind of become like the women's coffee morning, which sounds a bit sexist, but you know, that, that, that old, old sort of ideology that women would get together, have coffee with their kids and they still do that baby groups and stuff.

And it's kind of that vibe, I think now [00:26:00] where. It's okay to go and have a cup of coffee with your mates, with your bloke mates, and go for a walk for an hour or something, can just chat. You know, the old saying fishwives used to chatter about and gossip about everybody and all the rest of it, innit?

It's a little bit of that vibe, I think. I think we're kind of just broadening, I want to say horizons, but that's the wrong word. But we're becoming more open

Gary: about it. Yeah, I mean, the reason I ask is because There are more and more. There's more and more of these groups popping up all over the place and there's so much amazing support.

But the stats still show three quarters of all suicides are male. We're still on this podcast talking about men's mental health. There's Movember talking about men's physical health. Because we're still not doing that as men. Just being even, being equal, being okay with not being okay. And looking for [00:27:00] support when we recognise we're not okay.

We're not, you know, we're still baring our head in the majority by the looks of it. So I think it's because I like,

Benn: you know, from my perspective, whenever I speak to guys now, it's like they hit the download button. So, like, my perception a little bit now is that people are willing to talk about it, because Christ, last week alone, you know, like, my phone's gone off from several different people, not, who are just friends, or other people that I've come across, and even strangers I've bumped into, who just seem to press download, and you stand there, and you're like, Wow.

Okay. Where's this coming from? So it feels like it's opening up more. People are talking more, but yeah, you know, the, the broader picture, the bigger picture, yeah, you probably, you know, it's still a long way to go to get people actively doing

Gary: it. Well, one of the things occurred to me this morning when I heard Kelly Holmes talking and saying that in 2006, she was having a breakdown.

And there was no such thing as [00:28:00] mental health, you know, even, and that's 15 years ago, really, give or take a couple of years. So in 15 years, have we progressed enough? I mean, I

Chris: think it's, I think that, I don't think we've progressed enough. That's clear from the statistics and from the fact that we're having this conversation.

We certainly haven't progressed enough. And I think there is still a big issue with men talking about mental health. Yes, we know we can talk about it now. We, we've been told the campaigns have been out there, we've been shown that it's okay. Some of the big celebrities have come out and said, look, I've been struggling with issues.

Follow my example. So we know that we can, but I think there's still a big issue with it. And I think there's always a lot of banter in the workplace around mental health, particularly between men. Like I said, I've come from a trades background and there's, there's a lot of banter. You almost mock mental health.

Even now today, you almost mock it. But then actually when it comes down to it, people still, people will take you [00:29:00] seriously. And that's coming from very much a laddish environment that I'm talking from. Yes, we will mock it. Yes, we will banter it. But actually when it comes down to it, if you ask, most people are there to support you if you open up.

So, I don't know. I mean, does, does it? Stop other people maybe talking about their well being and their mental health when they hear other people joking about it for me. It normalizes it. It almost makes it okay. But does that do that for everybody? You know, I mean, we've all been there where you where you've got the adverts on the radios and then you make a joke about it or anything like that.

I mean, do you guys find that from places where you've worked that it's been a bit of a Bit of a joke, mental health, particularly between

Peter: men. I, I think, obviously going back to my comedy days, it was always used, you use comedy to kind of talk about a subject. And and, but yeah, I think you're right.

When I've, I've worked in construction and, and it was never discussed then. [00:30:00] It wasn't, it was just something that you, you didn't talk about and it was hidden. anD, and it is that, it is that case of trying to find the people that you can talk to about mental health. That's, I think, the

Gary: I think one of the big things, Peter, is going back to my generation, you saw mental health issues, depression, anxiety, things like that.

It's almost catching. So you didn't want to get too involved because you might, you might get it yourself. Almost. It felt like it was a virus. If so, everybody, if you had it, it's a bit like, Oh, I'm not going to tell anybody I've got COVID because I won't be able to go to work. Does that make sense? You know, we, and, and then, you know, we've now gone to got spectrum of Christopher who tells everybody everything because that's the right thing to do and then you've got people from a different generation going I'm not sharing anything and there's a real button of hedge.

I know that in the past I've heard people [00:31:00] joking about stuff. Because it's always easier to, to take the mick out of stuff than deal with it. All right. And then when I've got an issue, it's like, I can't talk about it because they don't take this seriously. And they'll now use me as their joke. So when you overhear people talking about you, if you work, and I think we talked about this a few podcasts ago, you hear people at work slagging off a colleague and then you're in a predicament.

You can't talk to that person because you know, they're likely to be slagging you off when you're not there. So all of a sudden it's like, I want to talk to people, but this is what they were laughing about all the way down the motorway. Yeah, and you

Chris: said something interesting that caught my attention.

You said that my generation will talk about everything. I don't think that's necessarily true. I think we're more aware, and certainly in my background, in my experience, what tends to happen if somebody's struggling with something, because it's. obvious, and you [00:32:00] can, and you know it, and you know it's not always obvious, but if somebody has got problems at home, you don't necessarily, they don't necessarily want to come and talk about it, but you are aware, and you sort of, they, they want to come to work and get on with their work, they don't necessarily want work to be the place they talk about it, but you're aware of it, so you're more sensitive towards it, you, you take it on quietly, you know, that's almost what I would say, it's not something to be ashamed of.

You go, somebody will come to work and it's, they're down about something and it's, it's everything okay, mate. And then, yeah, I've just got some stuff going on at home, I'd rather not talk about it, I just want to get on with my work, and it's like, fair enough, okay. So, the conversation about where they're struggling still isn't happening, but we're more sensitive to their needs in that instant, I think.

So it's not, I don't think everybody's an open book, but I think it's more okay to not be okay. Not necessarily to talk about it

Gary: though. So, I don't know about Ben being an ex [00:33:00] policeman or Peter being, you know, from a generation thing. We was always like told to leave that at the door. Yeah, and I think

Chris: that's still a strong feeling.

I think that's still a strong moral people live by, you know. I think a lot of people still go work for work, leave it home at home. And you can't do that. No, but I think that's still It absolutely doesn't, and I think that is still a big thing people do. And I think it's, I actually think it's helpful for some people, in some search of circumstances, you know.

I mean, so anyone, go on

Benn: Ben. Because I'm laughing because this, this is a conversation I've literally just had with a friend two, three days ago, and saying that they compartmentalize their life. So their family doesn't know their problems because they don't need to know them. You don't take their problems into work because you shouldn't, you shouldn't bother people at work with your personal problems.

And they view themselves as being really good at dealing with crisis and situations in their life. And I'm sat [00:34:00] there on the outside going, well, Not really, because it looks like a fucking disaster from where I'm sat. And the reason it is, is because you don't talk about it. You don't connect things at home, you don't let people in.

And going to work and sharing stuff with people at work, yeah, okay, you can argue as long as it doesn't impact your work, is what people Focus on, but you need that place with your mates, your work colleagues or whoever, where you can release some of that. Otherwise, you're just this pressure cooker waiting to pop.

Gary: Yeah, and as we now know, because you can't really compartmentalize things, it just adds up, like you say, until something gives. And then work all of a sudden works over pressurizing you and you have a bad home life 'cause it explodes there or vice versa, or, or your physical health or your mental health.

So we, we, we, we, you know, we know the brain doesn't work like that, but people do [00:35:00] still think like that. But we're being told by other people, one of the things I find around a lot of why we don't share is. Because people are selfish. If you tell me your problems, I'm going to have to deal with it. So people are selfish.

If you go on about how challenging life is for you in the job, where I'm your boss, I'm going to have to change it. So I don't want to know. You know, I was told by a HR professional, and they were very high up in a big, big, big business. that half of the HR work was working out how much it would cost to get rid of people who were not able to do what they need to do, not because of their job, but because of their mental health issues.

That was seen as a problem. Mental health was how much do we have to pay to get rid of it? And that's, you know, and I'm [00:36:00] talking in the last five years. In big organizations, so, and then you talk on a smaller scale that if you tell me your problems, I've got to support you, so don't talk about it, which is different to me being a burden, it's like you're making it clear that you talk to me, you're, you're burdening me.

Do you think that's true? Or is it just my view of it? I think, I think

Benn: for me, I think it, it comes, I think there's an element of truth in what you're saying there, and I think, I think there's some good points, but I think it comes back to weakness, and not being able to talk, because it, it shows you as being weak.

Which is why I think people compartmentalize it, people feel that they're gonna be judged, diminished, and branded with something because they talk about their mental

Gary: health. Okay, so can I make a suggestion? Not for this podcast, but for our future podcast, very future, very near, um, [00:37:00] we actually have a discussion about why is mental health weakness?

What makes mental health a weakness?

Benn: But you know, in terms of health, I think there's lots of angles on men's health and we haven't even, today we haven't even touched on things like sexual health. Because that, again, is a whole other element to that, that comes into play. But, there is a big issue around guys keeping that shopping list, not feeling like they can go to the doctors, talk about it, from a medical point of view, which for me, I guess because I work in the ambulance service, and I see people in a medical setting, everybody's got the same body parts, whether you're male or female, it's not a big deal, it's just who we are as human beings, and if you've got something wrong, it's generally Really simple to fix.

If you get it dealt with early on. If you leave it, it becomes a problem. And that gets more complex as time progresses to [00:38:00] rectify and sort out. And why suffer? Why live a life where you suffer and actually you could just get yourself checked over, have peace of mind and go. You know, even tradey stuff, so like I think it was Screwfix who had that campaign a few years ago saying don't be a spanner checking up.

Yeah. To reduce the stigma around it, and you, every time you bought something, you got a sticker to put on your toolbox or whatever, that said exactly that. Yeah. And it just, you know, it makes me laugh, because it's comical really, when you look at what blokes are about, and the way we can behave, and how outrageous we can be, or if you think of the sports setting, locker rooms, like rugby, you all jump in a bath together after

Gary: the match.

Yeah,

Benn: we'll walk around completely stark bollock naked, but yet someone can't talk about whether they've got a problem downstairs.

Gary: No, but we're, as a, as somebody who's been involved in rugby and an ex serviceman, their sexual double entendre are even worse than the [00:39:00] physical messing around you might do in, in rugby and football.

It's like, how can you do that? When you can't do that, and it's almost like, well we do this because I can do it because I'm tougher than you, or I'm as tough as you, or I'm an equal, so we can be really sexual, in a way, because I'm not scared of anything, and I can mess around, but then it's like, go in that room and let a doctor check you out, so Check you out.

It's like, well, I'm not doing that because I might think I'm gay. Some of the things you've done in the changing room makes you, you know, look worse than anything you'll do for your health. Everybody knows it's not true. It is what it is. But, weirdly, The whole game changes when you move from one scenario to another.

Chris: It's amazing really, isn't it? Like you said, there's so many campaigns that have been [00:40:00] put out there and it still hasn't changed the overall mindset. It's bizarre, it really is and it perplexes me. Maybe the new campaigns need to be showing that it's actually braver and more manly. To go and do these things.

I mean, I don't know if anybody will ever, if people will ever get that through their heads, but it is, it is braver and manlier to actually put your hand up and say, yes, I need some help. Actually, I'm not happy about something. I need to get checked with something. You know, it takes A real man to actually do it is my, my opinion and then all these people putting out there like what you've said is, Oh, I don't want to feel like I'm a bit gay or I don't want to, I ain't going to let some random bloke stick his finger up my bum and things like that.

Get over it. What are you talking about? You know, you're, you're acting more of a little sissy for lack of a better word [00:41:00] than if you just went and got on with it, you know, um, I think Peter, I'm going to say something I

Peter: did. I wanted to just pick up on the word brave there that you used because I think that's a lot of that is really good.

You know, when I, when I look back at times when I didn't go to the doctor, it was because I had that fear of, will it be that I'm going to be ill? I don't want to be ill. You know, and, and you, you put these blockers into your own head and it, and it is, I think it's the sensible word is to say to men now.

You need to be brave and go and show that you're not well. And that, I think, is a really good, good word that you used there,

Chris: Chris, and I just wanted to point that out. I'm sure there's an anagram in there somewhere. Balls. Arse. I don't know. I'm sure there's, I'm sure there's an anagram in the word brave somewhere.

Brave boys talk balls. Yeah, all

Gary: the things you need to get checked. Only brave boys play with their balls. Yeah. It's interesting, because I watched The Voice on Saturday night, and there was a contestant A really old [00:42:00] chap and, or an older chap, sorry, and he, I was talking about that he does a lot of work with suicide prevention and Olly Murs just broke down.

Hmm. Yeah, he did. Yeah, I saw that. And, you know. Other people go, oh, look at him, but he felt really sad. He thought about a friend who had lost and it really, really upset him. And it was okay to be upset. He got over it. He got, you know, got back on track. But in that moment, that situation, he didn't try to man it out, as people would say.

He didn't man up. He went That's really upset me. It's really made me remember something really awful. And in this moment I feel sad. And I don't care what you think. Millions of people watching. They didn't edit it out. No, and do

Chris: you know what? That makes me think of, I mean, we've not long had Remembrance Day.

if you're [00:43:00] watching a remembrance parade on tv or if you're at a remembrance parade and you see a member of the forces stood there at attention with a tear rolling down his face you're not going to stand there and say he's a weak man are you you're not going to stand there and say look at that sissy you're going to say wow you know and that's the attitude we need to have across the board with this sort of thing you know we need to go actually that is the the approach we need to have to mental well being men's health, mental well being and everything under that category.

It is, it takes a real man to

Gary: say something. We're, we're all therapists by day. And when somebody makes a phone call or whatever, and books in to see me, that's the bravest thing they can do. Coming to see me is nowhere near as making that first contact. That first contact is the hardest step they'll ever take, and that takes some real courage.

I'm going to take my hat off to [00:44:00] everybody who actually puts their hand up and go, I need some help. I really need some support.

Chris: I mean, one of my favorite sayings is, it, sorry, it's not bravery unless it's something that scares you first. I mean, you can't be brave if you're not scared of it. That's one of my favorite sayings, it take, it, Being brave doesn't mean not being afraid or awkward or uneasy about things.

That's not what bravery is. Bravery is feeling those things and doing it anyway, you know, and that is men's well being in general. You know, you have to take that brave step to say, I need help. I mean, it'd be nice if we didn't, if it wasn't, you know, it'd be nice if it was easy

Gary: for everybody. What would you do to make it easier for someone to put their hand up?

Or to look for something.

Chris: I don't think there's one answer for everything. For everyone. You know, I mean, we, I mean, Peter and I both said that actually joking and making [00:45:00] comedy about these issues helps us. It actually breaks the tension, breaks the ice. But for somebody else, that might put them off. I don't think there's one answer.

Gary: But we talked about the difference, I think, between comedy and breaking the ice and starting a narrative and banter. And then weaponizing it. Yeah,

Chris: absolutely. But even what's banter and a joke to us might not be to the next person. So I don't think there's one answer for all. I think keep the campaigns going.

Keep doing that. Keep normalizing

Gary: it. So what would you do, Ben, to make it easier for someone just to focus a little bit more on what they need? I think

Benn: what's in my mind is I think about when I tell, when I get clients come for therapy. And I say to them, it's a safe place. It's gotta be relaxed. It's somewhere that you can come and curl up like you're going from home to home.[00:46:00]

So I think it's about, for me, it's about highlighting to people that when you do come and talk about it, or you wanna get help, whether that's for a physical thing, like with the doctor, or you come in for your mental health side of it. We don't broadcast it across the front pages of the press.

Gary: So we know we don't do that, but what one tip would you give, or what idea have you got to make it a little bit easier for someone just to go, how can I do this?

How can I ask for help? Talk about it

Benn: more, I guess. And from my perspective, Bring it to the forefront a bit more in, in the things that I do and, and open the conversations up.

Gary: Okay. Peter, what would you do to make it easier for generations of men to just go, yeah, me too. I need some help. The really

Peter: nice thing that I, I [00:47:00] tend to get with a lot of clients is that they feel like they're broken when they come in and it's explaining to them that you're not broken.

So I think that message needs to come out a bit more to say you're not broken. You're not, this is the way our brains and this is the way our bodies are designed to protect us. You can come and talk about it and it won't be judged. And I think that's, that's the thing, the message that I kind of want to get out to people.

Gary: So more education. What about you, Chris? Yeah, I

Chris: completely agree with what you guys have all said, really. It is keep going with that education. Educate young. I think that's something I say a lot. I've said it on many other podcasts Start that education young. Start before the problems. educate it before the problem.

So when the problems start coming in, you can recognize it. And when we talked to early in this podcast about how do you know when you're exercising and gym going is becoming a problem, [00:48:00] it's educating that so we can recognize our own feelings and our own wellbeing. Before the problem becomes a problem, you know, so I think educate young is really

Gary: key Yeah, one of one of the things you know what I know from doing the work we do You can't ever get rid of competition.

It's a natural inbuilt Part of being human that we've always got to have a hierarchy in every level of society and every level of family and everything. We've always competed and that's why you have sibling rivalry and all sorts. It's not a choice. We can try and make it a choice, but ultimately it won't be, whether in corporates or whatever.

But I think if you can recognize and be more authentic. then that's easier, rather than trying to be like someone else. So I think it's about, for me, finding a way of showing people their own values, what they bring to the world, rather than what they [00:49:00] need to be to fit in with the world. And it's just trying to educate people, and I think that still starts really young, like you said, education.

But actually doing, you know, like Ben says, from our point of view, is sharing that message that it's okay to be you and follow your values and your beliefs. And you don't have to follow mine. Yeah. You know, so that's what I would suggest.

Chris: Cool. Well, I think that's about us done for today, isn't it? Yeah,

Gary: I think so.

Excellent.

Chris: So, as always, if you want to, need support or want to reach out, you can find us at inspiredtochange. biz. Everybody, have, enjoy the rest of your day, and thank you for listening.

Gary: Yeah, thank you. Cheers, guys.

Benn: Bye. Thank you. Bye bye.

Gary: Thank you for listening to our podcast that proves men do talk.[00:50:00]

Benn: If you would like more information or support, then please visit inspiredtochange. biz where you can

Chris: learn more about us.

Peter: And the Inspired2Change

Chris: team. And remember, the conversation continues on our social media, Inspired Mentor.