Understanding Domestic Abuse Against Men: Insights, Solutions, and Recovery with Expert Vanessa White
Hello, and welcome to another episode of Inspired Men Talk. My name is Peter Eley, and I'm a solution focused hypnotherapist. I work with legal professionals supporting them with their self care and people who are struggling with fears and phobias. And with me as always is Gary. Hello, Gary.
Speaker 2:He's on mute. Good start to the show, Gary.
Speaker 3:So I'm now unmuted myself. And as I say, I'm Gary, and I'm also a solution focused therapist up in East Anglia, Peterborough. I work with multiple people, particularly men and trauma. So anybody who wants to talk about, I'm quite useful at that. This is what we do.
Speaker 3:We're inspired to change.
Speaker 1:Lovely. Thank you, Gary. And also with us is Ben. Hello, Ben.
Speaker 2:Morning, everybody. I'm a solution focused therapist. Work with a variety of people, anything from, your anxiety in general life up until the trauma and the PTSD. We're here to find out some of the options around solving those issues.
Speaker 1:Fantastic. Thank you very much, Ben. Today, we have another fantastic guest and a really interesting topic of conversation. Vanessa White is a divorce and relationship coach. Good morning, Vanessa.
Speaker 4:Good morning, Peter.
Speaker 1:Would you like to tell us about yourself, what's going on in life, and how you've got to this point?
Speaker 4:So as you said, I'm an accredited relationship and divorce coach. I help people go through, find a way through, and recover from divorce, separation, and breakup. But, also, kind of at each end of that, people who are in a relationship, but they're not sure whether it's the right one for them or something massive has come and landed in it, like adultery or grief. At the other end of the scale, kind of after somebody has divorced and separated and that's all done, they get into the kind of what now, and who am I now, and I don't know how to have a healthy relationship again, break patterns of behavior, that sort of thing. So it kind of is all of those things along that that line.
Speaker 4:I have a specialist in domestic abuse. So I am very well versed at helping people who are in domestic abuse relationships, of which there are many, more than we probably realize, both men and women, although it is predominantly women. I work with clients who are in those relationships and don't know how to get out of them safely and properly, or people who are trying to divorce an abusive ex or parent with an abusive ex, or afterwards where people are totally broken and don't know how to move forward and are terrified of having another relationship. So that's a big part of my work as well.
Speaker 1:Cool. Thank you. And when we spoke, you mentioned a little bit about your life and what you've been through. Are you happy to share a little bit of that with us as well?
Speaker 4:Yes. Of course. Yeah. So I have been through my own divorce. It's quite a long time ago now, and sadly, that was from an abusive partner.
Speaker 4:I lived in an abusive relationship for many, many years and pretty much all types of abuse. So there's coercive control, psychological abuse, emotional abuse, financial and economic abuse, tech abuse, obviously, physical abuse that we think of. But there are so many different types, and I pretty much experienced most of those. And then I came out of that, and I was pretty broken. And then went on my own journey of, I suppose, what you'd call healing, but kind of self awareness and self development to get myself in a position.
Speaker 4:I then trained to become an accredited coach in the field that I'm in and did a master accreditation to give me the domestic abuse specialism and set up my business on the back of that because it's really important to me to help people understand what healthy relationships are, how to have them, what you do if you don't feel you're in 1. If you're not happy in your relationship, even if there's not abuse, we don't get taught that at school. You know, we don't get taught relation skills, so that is really important to me going forward.
Speaker 1:Oh, thank you. You you touched on something we're gonna talk about today. A few months back, the Inspirent team were kinda sitting and talking, and there's a statistic that came out during the during the European championships, how domestic violence increases when England lose, but it also increases when England win. And we weren't quite sure how we could turn this into a podcast. And then you and I happened to be having a chat.
Speaker 1:And you mentioned that obviously men are victims of domestic abuse as well. And that's something that I hadn't even really thought of, and it hadn't really kinda hit into into my mind. So I wanna kinda start maybe asking Ben. Ben Ben used to be a police officer.
Speaker 4:Okay.
Speaker 1:Ben, when you were a police officer, did you ever get calls to cases where men were being abused by women? What's been your experience of it?
Speaker 2:So, yeah, I I did. There there is one case in particular that always stands out in my mind because the guy was, when we arrived, was literally petrified. It was cut pretty much from head to toe and covered in gouge marks and where the that his partner had gouged him with her nails and scratched and cut him open all across his body. He was just in his, you know, underwear. It was in early hours of the morning, and you walk in, but then she'd assaulted herself to portray herself as the victim.
Speaker 2:But when you stood back and, you know, it's natural to go into most of those domestic scenarios. It's more frequently the female is the victim is the type that we go to. So it's not, you know, default kind of position is that's kind of where your mind initially goes, but you have to take a step back. And when you start looking at the scene and the level of injuries compared to the other person's injuries, you soon realize that this person is actually the victim and that was the male. She was absolutely gobsmacked that we'd arrested her.
Speaker 2:I think perhaps previous occasions, she'd won that sort of can I say debate? Not debate, but that kind of victim role, she managed to secure that, and he'd been the one that maybe has faced the consequence or been carted away. So we can that night, we flipped it on its head, and she was utterly gobsmacked by that. I couldn't comprehend why. So you do see it.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, you do see it. I've also seen it more in same sex relationships with guys. That's where I've seen it probably more prevalent than straight relationships, I think. But, yeah, it's it's there. I think, Vanessa, you might be able to update me.
Speaker 2:I've been out of this a little bit now, but it always used to be the statistic was it would take the victim to be assaulted or suffer abuse at least 10 times before they would make their first attempt at picking up the phone and and reporting that instance. And remember, that's not the first instance. That's the first time they feel they've got the ability to do it. I don't know if that figure's changed or if it's still the same.
Speaker 4:I think it's pretty similar. It it takes at least a minimum of 8 times for someone to actually attempt to leave a relationship. So even if they reach out for help in that first instance, which has taken a lot of attempts and a lot of thought to do, actually then to try and leave the relationship is then another minimum of 8 times. So it's incredibly hard when you hear people say, well, why didn't you just leave? Why didn't you there is no comprehension, I think, of how difficult that is.
Speaker 4:You mentioned the stats that currently, it's kind of 1 in 3 women will experience domestic abuse at some point in their life. And it's about 1 in 6 men at the moment will experience domestic abuse at some point in their life. I would say those figures are underreported, particularly for men. So it's a big problem that's in society that affect
Speaker 2:Yeah. Absolutely. Now one of my friends and a colleague was actually in a violent relationship, and he was stabbed with a screwdriver
Speaker 3:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:By his female partner. You know? And that's someone who worked in the job.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 3:What what are what are the things we often talk about on this podcast? The men don't talk, which we totally disagree with, all being men and all being therapists and all coming from a world of we're good at talking. That sounds fair. But because men don't talk traditionally, or that's belief system, and we don't wanna show any weakness, then you said it was 8 to 10 times of happenings before you make that first move to deal with it. Is it more for men?
Speaker 3:Do you think men might put up with more abuse for longer because they can't show any vulnerability or weakness to the outside world more so. I don't know if that's true. I don't know if there's any difference.
Speaker 4:Yeah. I would say in my experience because I see male and, female clients in my work. And, obviously, they're not all in abusive relationships. But if I look at the ones that have, yes, they either just don't tell anyone because there's so much shame, stigma. They might find it hard to talk anyway.
Speaker 4:Men find it hard to talk. And I think there is this big thing of feeling weak, seeming weak. I think particularly if it's female or male abuse. It's interesting, ma'am, what you were saying about male or male abuse in a romantic relationship that maybe that's spoken about more or they report it more because there's less shame than when a woman is abusing you. I don't know because I'm not a man myself, but I suspect, interesting what you were saying, Gary, I've got just looking about males reporting only 4.8% of victims of domestic abuse being supported by their local domestic abuse services are men.
Speaker 4:That is a tiny percentage from stat last year. So in terms of, you know, there are local domestic abuse charities and services in every area that will help any victim of domestic abuse. But if only 4.8% of people using those services is men, that shows how small the proportion are that are reporting it and going to get help from those services.
Speaker 2:I just looked at the Office of National Statistics. It's right. 1 in 7 men, 13.9%, will suffer domestic abuse. It's 1 in 4 for females, and I think we agree that that's, you know, what we know is higher and probably higher because of the reporting side of it. But that's a lot higher than I anticipated, 1 in 7.
Speaker 2:I know I've been Yeah. The pub was one of those people is gonna suffer something.
Speaker 4:Yeah. It's a lot. And I think, you know, it's hard, isn't it? Because there are those people out there who are suffering. And, you know, domestic abuse is interesting because it's one of those situations where the people living it, the victims, often don't know and would not label it domestic abuse.
Speaker 4:That was my experience. I would never have labeled my experience domestic abuse for many, many years. It didn't even occur to me. I think that is very, very common. We either think it's normal behavior, if that's all you've ever known in a relationship, or what you've seen your parents that if if you grew up in an abusive household, then you are in an abusive relationship, and that's all you ever seen in romantic relationships.
Speaker 4:You just think it's normal, normal behavior. Even though it is horrific, what people go through. And I think so I think there is a problem that there's also that thing of not even realizing for many people, particularly men, that they would label it domestic abuse.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And I think that's really interesting. And you've mentioned a lot of the different types of abuse that you went through, and some of them, I I wouldn't even know. So can you maybe just give us a very quick kinda, you know, financial abuse? What does it look like?
Speaker 1:Tech abuse, what does it look like? I mean, we know what physical abuse looks like.
Speaker 4:Yeah. I mean, financial abuse is is interesting because that is becoming more and more sort of talked about now. And that is where you essentially don't have control of your own finances. And, I mean, it sounds kind of relatively straightforward, and it's interesting because, you know, it might be that everything you earn goes into a bank account that your partner is in control of, for example. That's one example.
Speaker 4:Or you can't you're not given or allowed your bank card or access to your bank account unless your partner says so. You know, they are sort of clear examples. Now often this is painted by the abuser as being helpful and supportive. You know, they will sort of say, oh, no. Let me deal with all the money.
Speaker 4:I don't want you worrying about the money. You've got enough to do. You know, you come to me if you want money and I'll look after everything. That's how it's painted, which kind of seems caring. It seems like they're thoughtful thinking of you, but of course they're actually not.
Speaker 4:When it is abuse, you then have no access to your money. And again, you sort of, you say yes and you agree because you think, oh, they love me. They're being really caring. They're being really kind. Then you start to realize, actually, I can't spend any money.
Speaker 4:And people start all, you know, when you're out and people are asking you to pay for things, you start thinking, well, it's a bit weird because I can't actually pay for anything. You know, it sounds ridiculous, but it's so small how these things happen, and they are painted in a way that makes you believe that the person is thinking of you. And obviously, when someone comes to leave an abusive relationship, financial abuse is a problem. Because if you have no means to set yourself up, get a house, find somewhere to live, be able to travel to work, pay for food, if you have no financial means, that is a huge barrier to leaving one of those relationships. It kinda keeps people there, which is a problem.
Speaker 4:Tech abuse, you mentioned Sorry.
Speaker 1:Just just before you jump into tech abuse, I saw a I saw a Judge Judy episode, and she said something really pertinent to that. She said, when you're in any relationship, you should have 4 bank accounts. There's a bank bank account. Then that's what you should always do in any relationship. You should always have 4 bank accounts and that would, in theory, ensure financial freedom.
Speaker 3:But that's really that's really interesting because I thought we have 2 bank accounts, and I get confused over those. Just keeping them, you know, paying everything on time and that. So I have 4 on that jostling. I'd actually need a financial adviser. So it it's just like, wow.
Speaker 3:Did you do that? It's almost like signing a prenup just in case something goes wrong. It's an unfortunate situation we're in if we
Speaker 4:need to. I think it is. I mean, I I agree. And, actually, you know, very often, particularly the person who is the lower earner in the relationship, this can be a massive problem. And, obviously, that doesn't have to be the the female is the lower earner.
Speaker 4:It can be the male. If you're suffering from financial abuse, it's a massive problem. And, you know, I find people, you know, hear of examples where they have left the relationship. So they're going through a divorce and they're having to divulge financial information, and they find they can't get loans or they can't get a credit card or they can't get a mortgage. And as they start looking into this, they see that their partner they're trying to leave or have left has run up credit card debts in their name, has taken out loans in their name, has basically run their financial name into the ground, and they cannot get anything in their own name.
Speaker 4:You see that, which obviously forms part of this abuse. That is a massive problem. They didn't have any idea that their partner was doing that.
Speaker 3:So so that that just shocked me because I as Peter said, I know what physical abuse is. You can spot that because it's there. And I also thought I knew what financial abuse was by stopping somebody being financially free. But calculating to work up their debt behind their back, so if they leave, they can't. I've never seen that.
Speaker 3:I I clearly probably have seen it, but I've never thought of that. Mhmm. I I really quite naive even though I think I'm very worldly because I'm not there.
Speaker 4:I don't think it's naivety. I think it's just lack of awareness, and I don't mean you particularly. I think generally as society and it is changing because we are talk even coming on something like this, and we're having this discussion, which I think is fantastic. And obviously, you are aiming your conversations at your male audience, particularly. And I think it's amazing.
Speaker 4:And, you know, hence, I'm really grateful to be on here. And I think it's not naivete. If you haven't been in it or mixed in the circles where you're aware of it, why would you know? It's like anything in society. We have to get much better at talking about it because we can't stop abusive people being out there, toxic people, bullies, whatever.
Speaker 4:But how we show up for ourselves and for people we know and love is really the key. The only way we can behave in a way that is going to help safeguard us is if we're aware of what goes on. So we're aware of the types of abuse, what abuse might look like, and what you do if you think you're in it or someone you love might be in it. Those kind of things are what's gonna help because we can't change abusers, you know, particularly.
Speaker 2:Vanessa, have you heard of, of financial domination?
Speaker 4:Not in those terms. Well, I don't wanna say I have, and then I get it wrong.
Speaker 2:So no. I'm I'm interested here because there is a way of life, like a BDSM lifestyle, sexual, sexual, like, you know, fetish type lifestyle where people
Speaker 4:Oh, okay.
Speaker 2:Go through financial domino domination. So basically give up people their bank accounts too or give them access to their bank cards and things like that. It's more in the gay community, I think, where it probably is more prevalent, but it is both straight and gay world. And I was gonna ask you if you're aware of it, but I was gonna ask you what's your take on when does one thing become a person accepted and one become actually, it turns into another of this is now, a domestic abuse kind of scenario?
Speaker 4:That was really interesting. There are so many, I suppose, what you call sexual fit fetishes and kind of niches that you hear more and more about, I think, that are sort of surprising in terms of that is quite surprising, I think, in terms of the you're handing over your finances. And obviously, it's a it's a power thing. All these things are are power on them and and domination. I think the question, you know, because I've had people saying say women who's when I've talked about financial abuse, for example, they're like, well, yeah, but my husband does all the bills.
Speaker 4:He sorts all the bills for me, and I love that because it it's really helpful, and he knows what he's doing. That is not financial abuse. You know, it's it's kind of if if there were other there were usually, and I would say pretty much a 100% of the time, never just one type of abuse that's going on in a relationship. So, you know, if you look at, say, financial domination, if you look at that particular thing, if that is a couple's thing and that is, you know, sort of sexual lifestyle that they live to, they're both obviously consenting and happy about that. But you take away that sexual side and look at the rest of their relationship, and there are no signs of any other kind of control or domination or power struggle or abuse of any kind, then clearly that is there's nothing abusive or worrying there if they're both into it.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 4:If you start looking at that sexual fetish and then outside of the bedroom, there's a lot of power and control stuff going on. Obviously, that's a problem. And I would say to anyone who might think in one particular area of their relationship so in this example, sex, there's a dominant, feature quite considerably there. And, obviously, this is about finances, which is quite serious. If they're thinking, listening to this, actually, I feel there are other places in my relationship where I don't like what my par my partner is is quite controlling, it's something to then sit up and think about.
Speaker 4:Doesn't necessarily mean their partner is abusive. She gotta look at it in the in the round, but I would say, actually think about it. Because if consistently across other areas of your relationship, you see things where power and control is done, or you don't like the behavior coming towards you from your partner, or it makes you feel diminished or like you're walking on eggshells all the time is a big one, but you can't quite understand why. Pay no to those and look into it a bit more because those feelings you have are actually really important. So I would say one isolated thing, maybe not if you're both in agreement and happy with it.
Speaker 4:But when you start to see other areas, that's that's a red flag for me.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Brilliant. Alrighty. I I know it caused Gary to squinch in his chair when I asked him. But he's like, what is going on?
Speaker 2:I don't know where
Speaker 3:we're going with it. It is well, it it it was a bit odd. But it's funny because you talk about BDSM, and then we had the consent word in there. And I remember a friend of Bowles one day admitted that she was very much into that side of the world, and I'm like, wow. Okay.
Speaker 3:And we're all having dinner with a big group of us, and I'm like, oh, does that mean you do this? You're like, no. It's really vanilla. And I'm like, well, that's, like, extreme. And she's like, well, I wouldn't do anything.
Speaker 3:That's boring. And I'm like because I'm so far away from the extremities of what you might call. So but, ultimately, there's still a choice. And I think that's what you've said. It's when we're that choice is there.
Speaker 3:But I'm quite naive in a lot of things, and I think I'm very worldly, but not really.
Speaker 4:Yeah. We we kind of only know what we know in a way, don't we, what we see and experience, and I suppose that's just the way life is. I think it's when you get into things I mean, any kind of abuse or bullying is about power. If you actually strip it right back, it doesn't matter whether it's in the work place, whether it's amongst friends or your family or it's in your romantic relationship, but actually what you're looking at is an imbalance of power somewhere along the line. Someone is feeling or is thinks they are more powerful than the other person, and that's where you get into that behavior.
Speaker 4:When you strip it back, that's basically the basis of it.
Speaker 3:So so I've got 2 questions, really. And and one is about me being of an older generation than, say, Ben. Peter may be sort of, like, sitting on that fence in the sixties, seventies, and probably even eighties. It was acceptable to be behaving like this by men and by women to other people. It's just what things was.
Speaker 3:You wolf with all the women walking past and things like that. And now nobody would do that or shouldn't do that. So that's one question. Do you think people are changing their what's acceptable, what's normal? And particularly people who are now being abused, would they have perceived that they've been abused before because that's what everybody did?
Speaker 3:And then the other question is, aren't people now going, that's something I can use against you even if it's not true? Because I see that as well. A lot of men don't get to see their children, don't get this. I only have clients who are they're partners of their of of a saying this and the other, and they're having to fight to prove their innocence rather than being innocent and shall prove, and they're not. I see a lot of men who are broken because the allegations are made of domestic violence of all sorts of abuse, which is not really more than just an angle to take advantage, but it never happened.
Speaker 4:Yeah. That's an interesting one. Starting with your first, I mean, they're really interesting questions, actually. I mean, the first point you made about how we roll back a generation or 2 and how behavior was just generally different towards women, towards people generally. And I think that's it's so fascinating because, you know, it's is a, you know, wolf whistling, that sort of thing, which now you know, the way that we should be behaving towards each other, whether a man or woman, should be respectful and kind coming from a place of compassion when we're dealing with people of any kind.
Speaker 4:The way men are meant to be now, I mean, I'm more interested in your takes on it as males, really. You know, I think it's quite difficult. What I see is it's quite difficult for men. There is there's still this thing of, I'm a man, so I should be macho, strong, and in control. And I don't mean controlling.
Speaker 4:I just mean in control, in a healthy way. But then there's such a push now, rightly so, that we should be asking our men to open up, be more vulnerable, talk to us about things. Obviously there's a massive problem with suicide and men, so we want to try and break into that as much as we can. And those two things where you've got this, I've got to be a strong macho man, but also I've got to be open and vulnerable and, you know, show my sort of softer side, how I really feel. Those two things are quite difficult to put together.
Speaker 4:And I think in a way, we go to extremes of both, and I'm very much more the middle ground kind of thing. I think to have a good, healthy, romantic relationship, doesn't matter whether, you know, you're heterosexual or homosexual, but you really need a good emotional connection with the other person. And if you don't have that, it's very hard to have a really good, healthy relationship. You can be in a relationship, and I see lots of people who are in relationships like that. You probably know people like that who are in relationships and have been together a long time.
Speaker 4:It's all okay. But, actually, they're not really emotionally connected with each other. To be emotionally connected with somebody else, you have to feel safe. You have to feel prepared to be vulnerable. If you don't feel safe to open up and say how you feel with your partner, you're not going to.
Speaker 4:Doesn't matter who they are. Yeah. Doesn't matter where they come from. Doesn't matter what sex you are. That feeling of being safe in a relationship is really important.
Speaker 4:Also, if we're asking our partner to be vulnerable with us and open up to us, we have to do the same. So I see that a lot where, again, you know, well, they don't talk to me. They don't tell me anything. They don't tell me how they're feeling that you know, well, are you doing that? Oh, no.
Speaker 4:No. I don't like to. If we're asking someone to be open, we have to also be open with them because then they think, oh, yeah. They're telling me things, and they feel safe. So, actually, I feel safe to share with them.
Speaker 4:So I think you need both. I think there's a big thing in society where men don't necessarily know how to be and how to act. And also, we've got to where everything is very extreme. So it it's difficult to navigate that path. I don't know what you all think as as men.
Speaker 3:It's easy for me because I've been married 40 odd years. So, you know, it's it's an interesting one because I talk to other married couples, people like that, and me and my wife never had an argument. In 40 odd years, we've never had a fight. That I'm very good at doing what I'm told, but she's also very good at letting me do what I want. And we've got an easy relationship and easy family.
Speaker 3:My children then have a go at me and go, and we don't know how to have arguments because they've had no exposure and therefore no training of how to be. Because if they've just seen people get I don't know. And that's a weird thing. It's like, what do you mean you don't have an argument? Well, we've never seen one.
Speaker 3:So there is an element of that role modeling, but also I see it go too far because if you're the child of an abuser, then you're don't know how to abuse or be abused. So I do see that, but I don't have a lot of experience. I've done lots of work for domestic violence charities, but I've never experienced it personally. I don't know what the other guys think. I think it's very difficult to be a man in today's world.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. My childhood, then I grew up in a in a family that had domestic violence, which was predominantly fueled by alcohol. If my dad would go out and get absolutely trolleys with his mates at the pub, it could have been something really insignificant or stupid that perhaps had happened in the day or that maybe mom had said or done, and then he'd be coming home and he'd be like, I'm gonna I'm gonna foul you, and I'm gonna it'd be an argument. And I used to stand in the middle of it. I used to just I I learned very early on as a when I was younger that if I put myself in the middle, it stops the argument because my dad couldn't continue.
Speaker 2:And I could get my mom to go to bed, and I could deal with my dad and turn his rage into more humor and the fact he's drunk, and get him to bed and and calm him down. I know, certainly, for my mom, she's had times where she's been absolutely petrified. Think about being on holiday with some friends, and my dad told them to go for a drink in the pub because he was gonna take her home take her back to the house and sort her out because she'd said something wrong that day. And, thankfully, the majority of the time, it was all just verbal shouting and abuse. There wasn't anything necessarily physical.
Speaker 2:It was mainly verbal. There was the odd occasion I know for where he's he he punched one of my sisters, and stuff in his drunken mindset. But if you look back at that generation, it was you kept yourself you kept it private, you kept it behind your closed doors. And and when you married someone, you were married for the foreseeable, it wasn't an option to leave. If you look at today's society, I don't know if it's more open and it's easier to walk away or if it's become more sneaky, it's become more a different layer to it.
Speaker 3:Is it more transactional?
Speaker 2:Yeah. I think what I think of, you know, when I think about it, is it a bit more like kids having tantrums because you can't get something on demand? Because society now is expects everything on demand. We can get whatever we want pretty much all of the time at our fingertips. And I just think of people that I know of having arguments and fights over really, really irrespective stuff for no reason.
Speaker 4:Thanks for sharing about your parents and that insight you just gave. I don't wanna comment on your situation personally, but just a couple of things from that. I think arguing and disagreeing and having conflict is a healthy part of a healthy relationship. And I know I know you, Gary, said you've not had an argument with your wife, but you will have disagreed at some point about even the smallest thing. You know, you're not gonna have literally agreed on every single thing.
Speaker 4:Even if it's like, what you're having for dinner tonight, one of you wants Chinese, one wants Indian. Yeah. You won't have an argument, but you've
Speaker 3:had We'll have we'll have
Speaker 4:a debate. Opinions. That is a healthy part of a relationship. That is very different. Conflict is very different from a view.
Speaker 4:So I just wanna put that out there to people. You can be quite an argumentative couple. You know, I see a lot of people who are quite conflicting because of this this their style of communication, the way they handle conflict, the way they resolve conflict are quite differing in the couple. So they have a lot of conflict. Even those sort of couples, it is not necessarily abusive.
Speaker 4:Even if people are really arguing a lot, it's very different from domestic abuse. So I don't want people to think either we never argue, therefore, I'm not in an abusive relationship. I think that's a really important message because I didn't argue with my ex partner. We didn't argue, but I was in a very abusive relationship. So I think that's a really important message, number 1, to get out there.
Speaker 4:I think also something about physical domestic abuse and nonphysical. This sort of feeling, and I think this is still quite prevalent in society of, oh, well, it's okay because I wasn't punched or they didn't hit me, so, you know, that's okay in terms of it's not abuse. It's not violence. And, obviously, we know now there's lots of other types of of abuse that I listed, you know, some earlier. Coercive control is now illegal, which is not physical violence.
Speaker 4:There is a lot of of abuse that goes on that has nothing to do with being violent. And, you know, the understanding of that and the abuse kind of escalates. And, again, it's about power. So if an abuser can control their victim at the lowest level of abuse, which might be sniping, it might be just being rude to them, dismissive, diminishing, all those kind of things. But what happens is as the victim pushes back more, stops being able to be controlled at that level, the abuse tends to escalate.
Speaker 4:So what you see is it gets more and more serious. The ultimate the ultimate escalation is to harm for some. It's sadly loss of life. And the highest risk comes when the the perpetrator feels like they're losing the most control, which is very often when the person is about to leave the relationship or has just left the relationship. For somebody who's in a relationship and if I work with anyone in that situation, making sure they are safe when they are trying to leave, have all their ducks in a row before they get the clarity of what they need to do, there is a high risk.
Speaker 4:But even if you're not leaving, that's kind of how it works. It can be quite low level to begin with, and it's this sort of insipid drip drip, but then it can escalate because of the perpetrator doesn't wanna lose control. So they will then do more to control them and then more and then more. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I think it's got like, I didn't articulate my final point very well. But, like, when I say more sneaky, I think technology makes this a lot easier now, financial control banking apps. You can track and monitor where anybody goes now on the phones and all the rest of it with all the different apps that are out there. Do you think that that brings a whole new dynamic to abuse?
Speaker 4:Well, that is. I mean, I I yeah. I do. And, Peter, you asked earlier about cyber abuse kind of earlier in the conversation, and this links nicely to that. A victim of abuse goes into work, for example, and thinks, right.
Speaker 4:I've got 8 hours away from my abuser because they don't wanna be in the house, obviously, because it's it's frightening. It's horrible. And, you know, very often you see abusive victims in work. They can often work long hours. They'll look for extra things to do because they want to be out of the house longer.
Speaker 4:And now you can have an abuser who, when they're sat at their desk at work, can be constantly texting them, abusing them at work, constantly emailing them, hanging around in the car park, coming and delivering something. So they're just always kind of around. They come with a legitimate kind of thing, but it's all that sort of thing of, I know you're in work, but I'm also just keeping an eye kind of thing. But, yes, they can get to them from their phone, from their computer. I think that is a problem.
Speaker 4:And that is, you know, cyber abuse is where abuse is coming via those other means. It can involve trackers. You know, loads of people again. You know, we have those, you know, those tiles, if you've got an Apple phone of people. You know, they're like commonplace now.
Speaker 4:We have them with our kids, and that is, again, another tool with which someone can control someone if they want to. You know, this is about manipulation, and not everyone who gives you a tile is trying to abuse you. You know, this is where we've gotta be be clear. It's other things will also be going on. They will you know, that will not be the only thing.
Speaker 4:But it's another tool where someone can track you So they know fully where you are, where you're going, and that element of control can limit your lives and make your life so small. And it's actually it's terrifying, I think.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So I think
Speaker 3:It's it's it's interesting because I thought, you know
Speaker 2:He's been trying to come in, Gary. Just
Speaker 3:Oh, is he? I was just talking about it.
Speaker 1:It was simple.
Speaker 3:Ask. Can I ask?
Speaker 2:Simple. Hijacking this conversation.
Speaker 4:Well Sorry. I talk a lot. I'm really sorry.
Speaker 3:No. It's my fault. I don't know. It's just that all the stuff you're just talking about before, I'm like, well, cyber stuff, and that's real. It can't be very simple.
Speaker 3:Then the stuff you just said, it takes 2 seconds to do. I I forget the simplicity of new tech now. So sorry, Peter. That's all I wanted to say is what I thought was a complex thing is actually a quite simple thing to It's an absolute control now. So wow.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And that and that, I think, you know thank you for sharing those things with us because I think that's really helpful to to certainly to me and to Gary who are technologically challenged slightly. But I think at the very beginning, we all said we're solution focused in what we do. And a lot about this podcast is what can people do to move forward. One of the important questions for me now, because we've explored some of what abuse looks like, what can someone do if they think they are a victim of abuse?
Speaker 1:What can I do if I think one of my friends is a victim of abuse? What things should I look out for, and what can I do to support them?
Speaker 4:Yeah. That's a really great question. And I think if you think you are a victim of abuse, you may be in a relationship now that is abusive and you're not sure, I would say to think about some of the sort of obvious things. They may not seem obvious to you. Looking at how you're feeling when you're around your partner.
Speaker 4:This is a big tell, I would say, in the first instance. I've mentioned earlier, walking on eggshells. That feeling where you just feel all the time, like, you're not sure what's gonna happen when you say certain things or do certain things. If you have that feeling of walking on eggshells a lot of the time when your partner is around, and particularly if you notice when they're not around, you lose that feeling, that can be an important tell. If your partner is very Jekyll and Hyde, so when they're with certain people or you're in a crowd, they're one way.
Speaker 4:As soon as you get home and they're behind the doors, they're another way. That is again a problem. So you see that shift in their character if you are being isolated from your friends and family. So if you've noticed over time, or maybe you haven't noticed, but now you're thinking, actually, I hardly see any of my friends and family. And again, this is done in a manipulative way.
Speaker 4:So somebody will be saying, oh, I heard how your mom was speaking to you tonight at dinner, and I really didn't like it. I thought she was really belittling to you and really rude and undermined you. I'd be really careful how much time you spend with your mom. That's the kind of thing that starts. Now you think, oh my god.
Speaker 4:They love me. They're being really caring. They've noticed this with my mom, and actually, yeah, they're right. My mom has said those things occasionally to me. And that happening, you know, that's gripped in quite often.
Speaker 4:Eventually, you hardly have anything to do with your mom. That's how these things happen. It's subtle. So if you feel you've been isolated from your friends and family, look at that. If you are living where you are scared to say anything or anything you say or do, you're diminished, you're, you know, told that it's not good enough, you're not, you know, you're not this, you're not that, you're too much, you're you know, all those kinds of things constantly is another sign.
Speaker 4:If you don't have control of your money, again, and you're you're seeing this as a picture's building up and you're saying, yeah, actually some of those things are right. Again, all these things is a jigsaw because it's not gonna be one thing. With domestic abuse, it will be multiple things that are going on. You can go online and you can Google signs of domestic abuse. They're on my website too, but you will find it on on websites like refuge, women women's aid, police websites have them on.
Speaker 4:You will find and you can look and it's like a checklist and think, oh my gosh, actually loads of these things are happening. There is a really, really good website for male victims of domestic abuse, and it's called Mankind. They're a small charity, but mankind.org.uk, and they are specifically for male victims, and they do amazing work. So if you are a man listening to this and you are worried about yourself and your relationship, that is a really great place to start. They also have a helpline, but you can get information off their website.
Speaker 4:Your local domestic abuse charity, so they are a really great resource. All areas have them, and you can contact them whether you're a man or or woman. If you are worried and you often, this is obviously going on in secret, if you've never told anyone your fears or you just want to sound someone out to see whether your thinking is right or not, Think of someone you really trust. If you don't want to go to an outside agency or get professional support straight away from someone like me, think of someone in your circle. It could be someone at work, but your sports club could be in your friends or family.
Speaker 4:And talk to them and say, look. I'm not sure, but I'm worried about this. What do you think? You know? What do you think about this behavior?
Speaker 4:And actually have the courage to articulate it. That's really important. If you're a friend or a family member or someone that someone's talked to you about, they're in an abusive relationship or you think they are, it's really it can be really difficult to broach it, being sensitive and compassionate in the way you speak to them. So if they've not come to you, you know, you say to them, I'm worried about what I saw the other day. What did what did you think about that?
Speaker 4:So not going in, oh, I think you're being abused. I think you know? No. We don't go in like that. Go in with just, you know, I I felt it was they really spoke to you, really talked down to you.
Speaker 4:You know? What did you think? And just start the conversation. And the person might shut it down really quickly. But it doesn't mean they now know that you're there.
Speaker 4:They may talk to you again, and you can say, look, if you're worried about anything, you can talk to me anytime. I'm always here from you, and you can just check-in with them. You can't give solutions. You can't tell them what to do. It's it's hard, but being there and keeping them knowing that you are there when they are ready for your help is really important.
Speaker 4:And sometimes that's the only thing you can do if you're an onlooker.
Speaker 1:That's wonderful. Thank you very much.
Speaker 3:I know we're not about the one number. I've got a really interesting question, which might not be able to be answered.
Speaker 4:Go on.
Speaker 3:What if someone listening to this is thinking they might be abusing someone? They might be the abuser. Because I see people who go, I think I'm turning into this. I'm becoming this since I've done this. I've lost my job or something like that.
Speaker 3:And we know what's going on psychologically, but, actually, their behaviors could be quite negative towards someone they love.
Speaker 4:Mhmm. That is a reason.
Speaker 3:Do we deal deal with that? I mean, you might not be able to answer it. You might not be able to answer it.
Speaker 4:I think it is interesting, and I think there's kinda 2 there's 2 bits to it, really. I think if someone is worried if somebody who has been pretty okay in their behavior, you know, they don't have a history of abusive behavior, but something has happened in their life that, like you said, has changed the way they feel and therefore how they behave towards their loved ones, You know, they are not by nature an abusive person. So I would say to that sort of person who is aware because very often, if you're an abusive person by nature, I'll say, you're not gonna think, oh, I'm an abusive person, and I'm abusing my partner. You know, they don't have that because it's usually it's never their fault. It's never them.
Speaker 4:You know? It's it's their partner that's causing the problem, that's causing the
Speaker 3:problem. Me do it.
Speaker 4:Yes. You may you said that, so I was angry. You know, those kind of things. So generally speaking, a a person who is an abusive natured person would not be saying, oh my gosh. I think I'm abusive.
Speaker 4:That's the first thing. So I think if you're awareness of and probably you're aware of it because you notice your behavior has changed from someone who is quite amenable, kind, and now you're behaving in a way. And I would say that's where you would really, you know, you can talk to your partner. Communication is really important, so don't shy away from talking to your partner. Be really brave and say to your partner, I'm worried because I've noticed that I may be not being as kind to you as I was.
Speaker 4:And I think it's because I lost my job last week. You know? You know? I'm everything I'm going through since I lost my job. You know?
Speaker 4:How are you feeling? And let the partner say, actually, you're fine and I understand, or I'm really glad you talked because, yes, I'm worried. So talk to your partner. 1st of all, have a conversation. And I would say if you're worried, if you're dealing with a traumatic event, whether that's loss of the job, grief, you've lost a member of your family, you know, you have some other issue, you've had a car accident, you've suddenly got a diagnosis of an illness, you know, pretty traumatic event, really.
Speaker 4:It does change how we behave for a time because we're adjusting to all this stuff. Talk to someone professional. So seek professional advice if you're in that situation. Talk to your partner and seek some help to deal with the issue you're going through. Because by dealing with it will help you then go back to behaving in the way you used to
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 4:If that helps.
Speaker 3:Absolutely.
Speaker 4:Yeah. So people who are generally abusive are not gonna wake up and think, oh my god. I'm really abusive. That just generally isn't what happens.
Speaker 3:No. Yeah. Because we do see people who go through the traumatic moments in their life, change their behaviors, and it's not permanent. But we do get people who are scared that it is, and they don't know
Speaker 1:what to
Speaker 4:do. Yeah. And I think it's really valid. And, actually, I am all for, you know, that level of self awareness. So if somebody's listening now and they recognize that in themselves, I would actually commend them for having the semblance of self awareness in the first place to be like, I notice my behavior's changed and actually I'm not very kind to my partner at the moment, or I'm shutting myself away and, and not really communicating, you know, whatever the change is, or I'm angry all the time or whatever.
Speaker 4:If you have the self awareness to start with that you have noticed a change in yourself, I think that's amazing. So that's, first of all, if you're listening and you feel that. But don't be put off by thinking, oh my god. I'm always gonna be angry from now onwards. No.
Speaker 4:You won't if we deal with the source of that issue, and don't be frightened to get help.
Speaker 1:Yeah. That's brilliant. Thank you. Ben, any final thoughts?
Speaker 2:No. I think it's been a really, really good podcast. I think there's so much information that's come out that's really crucial for helping a lot of people. And, you know, things are available as well. I can give you a couple of bits from a policing point of view that we have things like DVPOs, domestic violence protection orders, and protection notices.
Speaker 2:If even if there's not a power or there isn't enough evidence to charge someone per se, we still have powers to evict the perpetrator from your property and place conditions upon them to prevent them from coming to see you or be near you for up to 28 days, and then that can be ratified in court and be, you know, be a longer period and other issues. There's lots of tools out there. So if you think, oh, it won't work or they're not gonna help me, actually, there's a whole network of support, whether that's placing you in a in a refuge somewhere where it's a non disclosed location to protect you to simple basic tools and steps that we can give to support you from a policing point of view as much as the charities. But I know the charities out there do an absolutely fantastic job, and I've seen firsthand how they have been instrumental in changing people's lives and giving back their lives to the to the victims. So definitely look up the charity websites.
Speaker 2:But, no, Vanessa, thank you very much. It's been an absolute pleasure to have you come on, and the knowledge and insight you've shared is brilliant. Really love the conversation.
Speaker 4:Thank you very much. That's lovely.
Speaker 3:Yeah. And I've gotta say thank you for that.
Speaker 1:Before we say goodbye sorry. Can you just Ben.
Speaker 3:Sorry. Gonna get rid of that.
Speaker 2:I know you
Speaker 3:will. I know you. I'm sorry.
Speaker 1:I'm not letting it go just yet.
Speaker 2:Say goodbye. Just a thank you. I know.
Speaker 3:I also think Peter's like, Yeah.
Speaker 1:But I wanna say something with that for Ben. Ben, is there you you talked about the police resources. Is there somewhere is there, like, a a website that people can see all of those resources? Do they do that through the charities? What's the best way for people to find out about those police resources?
Speaker 2:A lot of the a lot of the support around domestic violence from a policing perspective is on each forces police website, but again, you know, there's a domestic violence hotline that you find. Again, if you search online, there's a number that comes up and again you can talk to someone independent about your experience of what's going on. I'd probably just Google domestic violence help, and you'll you will have a plethora of information that comes up ranging from charities to police to hotlines you can call. And the obvious one, if you're in an immediate danger, then the 999
Speaker 1:system yeah. Fantastic. Thank you. Gary, please, you can now What
Speaker 3:I was I was just gonna say, over the years, probably for 25 years, I've been doing a lot of volunteer work in different times and sponsoring different women's aids and domestic helplines and that. And every time I talk to somebody over the years, including today, it just starts a load of cascade of more and more thought provoking thoughts. And it just keeps growing, unfortunately, the thought process. But I get I just get surprised and shocked every time how challenging it is for people out there and how much is kept behind closed doors. So that breaking that stigma of getting help is so, so essential.
Speaker 4:Yeah. Thank you
Speaker 3:for that, sir.
Speaker 4:No. It's my pleasure. I mean, I I agree. And I you know, it is something that's behind closed doors, which is why it's so difficult. But talking about it, like, on forums like that or just generally is what is gonna help to break down those stigmas.
Speaker 4:And just I really wanna say that anyone who thinks they are in an abusive relationship or has been, it is not your fault. I just wanna be really clear. It doesn't matter who you are, what you've done, what what you've been told you've done or said. It is never ever your fault how someone else chooses to behave towards you. So please never ever think it's your fault.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And that's why I'm I'm slipping into the old language saying domestic violence. Absolutely right. It's domestic abuse. You don't
Speaker 3:have to have
Speaker 2:a violence element to be a victim. So yeah.
Speaker 3:Excellent.
Speaker 1:So to round off, Vanessa, can you do 2 things for me? 1, you mentioned a couple of charities. So there was the Mankind Initiative refuge. Are there any other charities that people can reach out to for help and support with? I'd see you roll your eyes.
Speaker 1:There's probably millions.
Speaker 4:Sorry. Do you want me to answer that first?
Speaker 1:Yeah. Go for that. Go for it.
Speaker 4:Yeah. There are there will be there will be so many because, like I say, you know, refuge and women's aid, for example, are kind of umbrella charities that are national. But each area, like I said, will have their individual one, which you if you Google, you know, domestic abuse charity, where you are, that will come up. The Mankind Initiative, which is specifically for men. You know, if you're struggling generally and you're not sure it's domestic abuse, but you're feeling awful and unhappy in your relationship generally, even if it's not abusive, but you are feeling very low, obviously, the same things about our mental well-being are just as important there.
Speaker 4:So reaching out to people who help Samaritans, if you want a crisis phone line, and they will also have some training around domestic abuse to point and they will be able to signpost you or help you with your feeling despairing. Shout is another one, which is a text only crisis service similar to Samaritans, but you don't have to have to speak, which some people find very difficult to articulate it verbally. It's via text. It's all anonymous. And again, they will have training around domestic abuse and where to signpost you to, but also, you know, we'll be able to to give you some information.
Speaker 4:So I would say that's important because the effects of domestic abuse or actually just being very unhappy in your relationship are the same as any other issue which affects our mental health and how we feel. And so it's really important to, you know, remember to get that support even if it's more general support.
Speaker 1:Excellent. Thank you. And then finally, where can people find you?
Speaker 4:They can find me. I have, my own website, which is www.vanessawhite.co.uk, and you will find information about me there and also how to book if you want to have an appointment with me 1 to 1. I also have the signs of domestic abuse on the I am on Instagram. I'm on TikTok, Tin. So you will find me Vanessa White or Vanessa White Coaching on those avenues.
Speaker 4:And, yes, I'm happy to have a conversation with anyone who might be worried before they step into a coaching environment with me.
Speaker 1:Fantastic. Excellent. I think the gents have said it, but I'll go around again. I wanna say thank you so much for your time. It's been a genuine pleasure and a real a real learning curve for me.
Speaker 1:So thank you very much. Gary, final things?
Speaker 3:Yeah. It's just lovely to meet you, and, you know, you talk so, I'm gonna say, positively about such a challenging issue. There is solutions, and that's what I love to hear. So thank you for that.
Speaker 1:And Ben?
Speaker 2:Yeah. No. Absolutely. Again, thank you very much, Vanessa. I think what does definitely shine through is your knowledge, your skills, and your passion for what you do.
Speaker 2:So I really appreciate you coming on the show.
Speaker 4:Well, that's lovely. Thank you. What a great start to my week having all that feedback. Well, I'm it's delighted to be here, and I really, really am very grateful for you inviting me on and letting me share my knowledge and hopefully help some of your listeners. So, yeah, I've really enjoyed it.
Speaker 4:Thank you.
Speaker 1:Thank you. So take care, everybody. It's been a real pleasure. I hope you've enjoyed this episode of inspired Ben Talk. And don't forget that you can tune in and drop us some feedback on Facebook, on our Facebook page, and we'd love to hear.
Speaker 1:Take care. Speak to you soon.
