"Voices Unheard: Breaking the Silence on Men's Mental Health with Jason Firmager"
Welcome to Inspire Mentor for solution focused therapists all in 4 different decades who openly and honestly discuss their perspective on the issues surrounding men's mental health. The things that stigma says we don't talk about. Hello, and welcome to another episode of Inspired Men Talk. And this week, we have a special guest, Jason Famager, and he's gonna be joining us, to talk about not only his own personal journey, but also why he set up a charity, around men and men's mental health and getting them to talk. So, Jason, do you wanna introduce yourself and tell us a bit more about who you are?
Jason Firmager:Absolutely. So hello, everyone. My name is Jason Ferringer, and, who am I? I'm on many things. I wear a few hats.
Jason Firmager:I'm essentially a therapist, hypnotherapist as these chaps here. Elements of psychotherapy, cognitive behavioral therapy, do some NLP, some life coaching, some PMDR. And, I sort of went into therapy realizing that people were quite quite complex. You wouldn't build a house with a hammer and try to force a screw into the wall. You'd use different tools for different jobs.
Jason Firmager:And, I personally probably undiagnosed ADHD, so I've always struggled to understand my mind as a child and, had counseling as a kid through various traumas, which we can sort of go through to some degree, as we go through the podcast. And, really, it sort of set me on the journey to try and understand myself, 1st and foremost. I realized through personal, you know, private practice that, there was a lot of men struggling, certainly post COVID, and, it seemed to be a big problem. I was watching very proud individuals who were suffering considerably and, I generalize. I'm not saying this to every man but a lot of men do struggle to to reach out, through fear of being judged.
Jason Firmager:Even in relationships, sometimes you can fear the emotions that are gonna be weaponized. Friends and families and things like that can be quite difficult. Didn't talk about. Also talking about emotions can be very difficult for other men to to also share. So even if you do happen to reach out home with friends, in a pool room, a football match, a pub, you tend to sort of get the generic, hey.
Jason Firmager:You're alright, mate. Just get a point. You sort of. So, you know, the the depth there, I think the trauma's really on both sides. Individual doesn't reach out, and also when you do reach out, it can be triggering for other men to not feel to show that weakness or vulnerability.
Jason Firmager:I also realized there was the individuals of men that did reach out, and, unfortunately, they had bad experiences where they were given 6 weeks Zoom calls, therapy that was sort of unpersonal approach. And one of the things I certainly started to to realize very quickly in my profession with my sort of wiring in my brain, I noticed patterns very quickly, and it's been very advantageous to my profession, actually. I finally found a use for that overthinking, in a in a sort of constructive way. And I realized that a big percentage of of men that have struggled, that I've supported quite a few 1,000 now, were actually neurodivergent, and just potentially undiagnosed and or diagnosed. And what you get is that, sort of looping mind, which can be both a blessing, in some aspects, but also a bit of a curse really if it's not managed in the right way.
Jason Firmager:So I was watching a lot of very, very strong men's suffering. I live in a town called Sittingbourne, which is in Kent, and, I moved from London about a decade ago. I had 2 young kids, and I watched quite a downfall of people in the community, which was heartbreaking to watch. I was reading in the press of young men committing suicide, middle aged men committing suicide, elderly committing suicide. And in the profession I'm in, I would hear stories that weren't also in the media.
Jason Firmager:And, post lockdown, it got to a point where, I thought something needed to be done about it. And I, I set up, mental health. This is literally at 3 o'clock in the morning. I had a bit of a health scare myself, I had a strange feeling in my chest and whether it was to buy an intervention or an absolute cock up with the NHS, to this day, I'll never know, but I I don't like to play play the gamble with it. I went to the hospital and, they did my bloods.
Jason Firmager:Something didn't seem right in blood levels, and they put me through the scan machine and CT scans and a big halo, they die in your veins and it's always quite a scary experience to go through. And I was there from, midday until probably quarter to 12 at night. And they said to me in a small room, it's not looking good, mister furniture. Unfortunately, you've got a shadow on your lung and this isn't a good sign. Try and get some rest and come back at 6 o'clock in the morning.
Jason Firmager:Now I don't know about you guys, but personally, I didn't get much rest. So I, we've got 2 young girls, 2 children, 9 and 10 now. And in that moment, I kind of prayed to every dead sea that there was because I didn't wanna get anyone wrong. So the archangel Michael, the Buddha, the Mohammed, the Jesus, the Mary, You know, I threw it all out there and said, look. I'm not ready to go.
Jason Firmager:Get me through this and I'll make a pact. I I promise you I'll help as many people as I can, with the time I've got. And that's kind of, a bit of a spiritual pact that I made and I went back to the hospital the next day and they took my bus and, the levels seemed to be relatively normal. And then, we went through a secondary scan with my wife. She she was there supporting me.
Jason Firmager:And, they said, well, mister Permager, it just looks like you've got a slightly inflamed lymph nodes. So we're not sure why the operator did that yesterday and put you through that scare. We're terribly sorry and and myriad of apologies. But, the pact was made and, I saw that as, I like to think of that as some defined conventional. As like I said, guys, either way, but if it wasn't, it's something that I've set my heart to doing both, willingly and spiritually.
Jason Firmager:So, what I did is I set up, the idea of, creating a group and I thought, you know what? If I can help 10 individuals that reach out forward and I can help not only give them a better quality of life, but potentially save their lives, from going down that that dark route and give them somewhere where they can talk, somewhere they can feel safe, somewhere those feelings are not going to be weaponized, then I've done something right. So within, I would say, 8 weeks, I started getting things up and running. I went, I thought, how can I get this out there? And I I, I didn't have the money for giant advertising campaigns.
Jason Firmager:Understandably, it's not cheap to do billboards. I didn't have the money to do planning permission, which would be £1500 per advertising bill board through the council. Mhmm. So I got creative and, I managed to approach a sponsor who would pay for the first wave of billboards. I got 8 foot, 8 meters by 4 meter billboards, and I had 7 of them produced.
Jason Firmager:Got somebody to, so my sales profession before this, came in in handy. And then I went down to private businesses and I said to them, look. You've got a beautiful wall on the side of the main road. I said, you know, pitch my heart out. Told them what I was trying to do or what I was doing.
Jason Firmager:And, I said, if you allow us to put the billboard on the side of your building, what I will do is I'll make sure that your logo is on that, but I'll also make sure your logo is on all of the other billboards on everything that we do. So I managed to get a huge campaign, done with 7 7 or 8 billboards all throughout the town center, which caused a huge bit of attention. I did some media press interviews. I went out on the street and spoke to people. I went into local businesses.
Jason Firmager:And within a very, very short period of time, literally 8 weeks or so, we did the first event. Probably 2 weeks before the event, I didn't even know where the event was gonna be and we we ended up publicizing online. But I found an amazing, we had a street party. And actually, there was, a vicar who just moved into a vicarage 2 doors down, do you believe? And we were talking, and he he come from London.
Jason Firmager:He's the quirkiest vicar I've ever seen, tattoos and ear expanders and really cool guy. His family were brilliant. And I told him my dream and what I was doing and why I was doing it, and he felt a huge sense of connection to that. He's a religious chap. He was also a man that opened through his own journey.
Jason Firmager:And, we had a chat the next day in his church, and he very kindly let us use the venue. And it had 6 giant TV screens, and it was the perfect venue. And, on the first night that we, opened, we had 55 men. Fantastic.
Gary Johannes:That that's that's so amazing. So
Jason Firmager:It it
Gary Johannes:so heartening.
Jason Firmager:Absolutely. And and and today, I mean, we've had 352 men that have come through our doors. I've stopped 20 people from suicide in the last 13 months. Wow. It's just been getting guys off of bridges and I I think and what's incredible is I've got a team of 10 and not a single one of them is paid.
Jason Firmager:And I I had the mindset that there's 2 different ways to look at things. 1 is management and that's telling people how to do things and what to do, and I realized I had no right to do that. My integrity didn't allow me to try to manage. All I did is I went with the perspective of being a leader, which is having nothing to give other than a dream and a passion and ideology and I shared that with these individuals and they have taken that energy as if it's their own. And we've got the most incredible individuals and what's even more beautiful is other than one individual, all of these individuals that are on our team have been built from service users.
Jason Firmager:So they've mental health is not, the guy outside of a you know, with a can of tenants, which is, you know, or the guy on the cocaine. It's it's the solicitor. It's the barrister. It's the ASDA worker. It's the scaffold or it's the traveler.
Jason Firmager:It's it it it doesn't discriminate. So we've got some incredible individuals with some amazing talent and I think, like myself, admittedly, one of the reasons I do this is it indirectly and directly heals me. And I think some individuals like to be able to talk through their trauma. Some individuals like to listen, but some individuals like to be able to help and give back, and they find a sense of solace and healing in that for themselves.
Benn Baker-Pollard:That's unbelievable, Jess. That's you know, it's an amazing turnaround. The number of people you've had through and and the lives that you've helped save in such a short space of time is is phenomenal. Thanks. I'm interested to know a little bit more, the backstory behind you.
Jason Firmager:It was, my life's been quite interesting really. I left home very early, which would be 9 years old. So, I went to live with, my grandparents and, I didn't get on with my stepfather. And, my grandparents are loved a bit So I stayed there for a year and, became home. It wasn't easy because obviously your family, sort of, you know, had a younger brother and he stayed there and things like that.
Jason Firmager:And, but then one day, my grandparents came in and said, like, you know, you know, and Scott Parkinson's. She's not too well. We can't sort of look after you full time and I made some little friends on the area and I lived there for it for that year. So that was difficult. Then I kind of went off to boarding school.
Jason Firmager:So I was there till I was 16 years old and I I remember the first day of, being dropped off and the matron, missus Margaret's name was, in a a house called Kent House in Calendly. There was a boarding school called Warren and Alexander Hour School in Reigate. And I remember the matron was holding me and saying, you need to go, mister Fermot. You need to just drive away. And I remember that moment of him driving away and me trying to break free and I managed to get free and chase my grandfather's car on this drive for about a mile.
Jason Firmager:It was the most heartbreaking thing and that caused me a little bit of, trauma, I think. I think the the feeling of sort of not almost abandonment in a sense, and it led me through my life, slightly angry in my twenties. It it led me to issues in relationships a little bit. We're obviously very cold and didn't want to get attached and when I did get into relationships, and I and I allowed myself to be open, the trauma of rejection was so overwhelming. It was a domino effect of of not just the rejection of that individual, but it was what felt like the rejection of your whole life.
Jason Firmager:So that was very, very tough to deal with and I I spent a lot of time soul searching. When I was in boarding school, I think because of prob I'm probably the ADHD. I've never been diagnosed but I know the symptoms as a therapist. But I was always a little different. I didn't like big groups.
Jason Firmager:I used to get sense sensory overload. I didn't like football. I didn't have any sort of male sort of father figure. Didn't have older brothers. So I never had that environment.
Jason Firmager:Boarding school was very kind of I remember the first day going there and I took my teddy sweep and I pinned him to the wall with nails and 3 fleet darts. And and I went to tell the teacher and sort of walked around the the door with a big concrete fighter and I kicked the door and sliced off my finger open. And it was just all slightly overwhelming. So I spent a lot of my time, playing the piano. I I managed to persuade the vicar to lend me the keys to chapel.
Jason Firmager:So while they're allowed to play football, I was back engineering Beethoven and Bach in trying to press every note on the piano until I could understand, and piece together music and songs and things like that. Excuse me. I've just got over mad for this. So I spent a lot of time in my own head. I was brilliant at art.
Jason Firmager:I used to draw a lot and spend time with that again, the sensory thing, you know, it was the stimuli, it was the time in your head, the thinking. And I wanted to kind of understand my own mind. I found solace in music, art, and physical activity was a way for me to stop the overthinking. I knew something was different. I I also used to be extremely and still am extremely intuitive with people's feelings.
Jason Firmager:I would just pick things up on people. There was a lot of lads in the boarding school that their parents grabbed me. They've been through a lot of trauma. There was lads who were fostered, didn't have families. They didn't go home on some other place.
Jason Firmager:They stayed in the school. So I ended up being drawn to people and helping them naturally, sort of jumping forward. But as I got to a position, later in life, I I was became more and more curious about how the mind works. I was always studying things. I wanted to understand why we're here.
Jason Firmager:That would have different literature, and I was just trying to understand it. It didn't make sense to me. There was things that were missing. It looked ancient Egyptology and and, ethology and the history and ancient cultures and the Mayans, and I was all searching for something, some understanding. And, I actually, left quite a good career and, I went through a bit of a breakup at the same time and sort of crashed for a couple of months.
Jason Firmager:And my mother said to me, this is where it all began really for as far as therapists concerned. My mother said to me, you need to get yourself out of the house. Stop my finger around. She said, why don't you come with me to a spiritual holistic show in Crawley in Sussex? I was like, okay.
Jason Firmager:What is it? She'll just come down and just you'll enjoy it. She's okay. So I went to this holistic show. And in this show, I suddenly found what I could only describe as my tribe.
Jason Firmager:There were people who were doing energy healing. There was therapists, hypnotherapists. There was counselors. And there was all these amazing individuals there and I noticed that they all had this this they were like myself. You know, they were like artists, musicians, and writers.
Jason Firmager:They just wanted to do what they loved, but they weren't very good with business and I've had a good business back. So what I decided to do is create a magazine to support, therapists so that they could be great at what they do. Because what I was seeing was a lot of successful, people out there in the therapy industry that weren't particularly good And I was seeing a lot of incredible individuals that really should have much more of a limelight and more opportunity. They just didn't have the skills to get out of there. They were naturally gifted, but they weren't natural salespeople.
Jason Firmager:They weren't marketeers. And to me, that was there was a sadness in that. I also wanted to connect with my own mother, I suppose, in a in an indirect way, to show her that in my subconscious wound within a child that I was good enough and that look, mom, I've done something that's fulfilled that that you love, if that makes sense. So I created this magazine, called Holistic Therapist and that magazine became very quickly the largest magazine, in the world, actually, for professional practitioners and for professional, holistic therapists. So the idea was to for them to learn marketing, this stand, and there was somebody backing in me over.
Jason Firmager:And it was actually, some individuals doing a type of hypnosis and regression, past life regression. And they were, an Aboriginal descendant, so it was some sort of hybrid, with a bit of child's work. And at the time, I was curious. Or skeptical. I've got a good logical brain but I'm also very spiritual and I was also still searching for meaning and and a deeper sense of understanding.
Jason Firmager:So I did the hypnosis and the trance with them. And what I saw, completely blew my mind Because if what I saw was real, wow. I needed to understand what this regression was, and I needed to know more. I was hooked. Equally, if what I saw wasn't real, what was my brain doing?
Jason Firmager:Why did it see what it saw? Why did it see the images? Why did it see the patterns? Why did it do this? So there was a huge entreegment in this.
Jason Firmager:It then set sort of almost a a a a sort of wall ball in motion in my mind to want to learn more and understand more. I then went and did an NLP course. I got offered through the magazine to go and do a review for an NLP course, a company called NLP School, a guy called Robbie Steinhaus and, fantastic course. And he, he he put me through the training, and, I learned a huge amount about language and understanding and, how language we use can imprint on how we feel and our belief systems and things like that, and and I and I sort of I became hooked. I was always naturally a therapist without being a qualified therapist, but I suddenly was hooked in this this new learning, this understanding.
Jason Firmager:And I suddenly found a group of individuals and was around people that were trying to develop and trying to understand the mind and trying to help people and trying to develop themselves. And this, to me, was infectious. And and it kind of started that ball, and then I did NLP Mastery. And then to do understand the hip hip you know, the regression work, I had to do the hypnotherapy course. And that's kind of where the journey began.
Jason Firmager:And then it got to a point where I left the magazine go in the end and, went more into sort of a a full time, therapist, as such, really, and that became my profession full time.
Benn Baker-Pollard:Awesome. So one of the things that we love to talk about is men and men do or don't talk in terms of mental health. We've obviously got that slogan that men don't talk, and the the obviously, the idea behind it is to get us talking more because we're trying to save people's lives and open that conversation. Absolutely. What's your perception of it, Jason?
Benn Baker-Pollard:Do you think men do talk?
Jason Firmager:I think men do talk, but they talk in in in different ways. And, one of the biggest things that was an eye opener for me, naively, I basically, in my life, I had female friends. Obviously, that doesn't work when you're in a relationship generally. But I did connect with women predominantly, and and I did that because I used to have a belief that, and on the outside perspective, I suppose it's, you know, it's kind of warranted to a degree really, but I I found women to be a lot deeper generally. They're a lot more they would talk in more depth.
Jason Firmager:There was more emotion, more understanding, and there was something in that resonated with me in that and when I would try to talk to to guys historically, you know, did you see the stars like last night? It's amazing. You know? It was the full moon or whatever. It's, it's the stars.
Jason Firmager:What do you wanna drink? Know, it was very sort of it was football and tits and beer and, you know, it was just Yeah. It it yeah. And and I and I kinda found I found myself feeling silly talking depth to guys. It was sort of quickly dismissed into a different subject.
Jason Firmager:So but what I've realized is certainly while being a therapist, you know, in that profession and certainly by doing the men's group is every single man there has depth. Every single man. There's not a single soul that doesn't and I think we're just conditioned, you know, for tens of 1000 years of evolution and society and because if you go to somewhere like, you know, the Buddhist countries or Kerala in Southern India, the men are very open, very spiritual, so I don't think it's all, genetic. I think it's society in it to a degree. And what I've realized is 2 things, and these are quite, you know, pointed things with men and and we do it in different ways.
Jason Firmager:I've realized this. Excuse me. As a guy, I was saying the other day to you on the phone, Ben. There's a there's a book actually, I've got a book. It's this book here, probably back to front.
Jason Firmager:Mhmm. And it's a chap called Victor e Frank or Franklin. It's a Frank with an l on the end, and it's a book called Man's Search For Meaning. I don't know if you know it. And it was a chap It was a, it was a chap from, in Germany, Nazi occupation.
Jason Firmager:Excuse me. I was gonna cough. Nazi occupation, he was a a psychologist and he was, town was invaded and everything that he knew was taken away from him. I mean, he was an Austrian chap, I believe. And he was, basically put in a a refugee camp and, everything was taken away from him.
Jason Firmager:And he, as a therapist, he wanted to observe why these individuals around him starved within each of their life. And when you starve, it's not a very nice way to go. Your organs start failing, your brain starts to shrink, you get tremendous headaches, your lungs drain, you know, you have fluid in your lungs, things like that. It's not a nice way to pass. So these individuals were literally on death's door, and he would watch these people smoking and, with the last of their roll ups.
Jason Firmager:He'd realize that when they finished their roll ups, usually within 2 weeks, they would pass away. He would watch one individual that was skin and bone and definitely shouldn't be living, but he thought his daughter might have escaped. So he had a reason to sort of stay alive and to see if he could find her. His own reason. So Victor's reason, he concluded that he'd seen such atrocities happen that he needed to get out.
Jason Firmager:He needed to tell the world of what atrocities had happened and share the story of what he'd gone through. So the summary really in his mind was that man could endure any atrocity as long as a sense of purpose was greater than the crap he's going through to the ground. And I find this with men. Every single man, every single one of them that we see through those doors has lost their sense of purpose. The second thing I've realized is hope, and I've realized very poignantly that the loss of hope is the degeneration of the human cell and species.
Jason Firmager:And as soon as we lose that hope, we start sinking into despair. You've only gotta look at retirement homes and look at the average of the partners that die within 3 to 6 months once they've lost a a partner. And I think I did a lot of thinking about this and, really deep soul searching and trying to work out why. And I look at, you know, all the chaps that are in the gym, they're still training, and I ask them questions about how they stay young mentally. And and I look at individuals that are deteriorating and things like that.
Jason Firmager:And, it's really, you know, you if you look at for us from a tribal perspective, sometimes I try and understand now by going backwards. To survive in nature as a tribe, we we need to have a use. We need to have a function. We need to have a purpose. The whole purpose of life really from a biological level is to procreate.
Jason Firmager:And if we if we stop being of use and we stop stimulating that hippocampus, when we stop having a purpose, when we stop having a belief, when we stop having hope, then essentially, we're a drain on that tribe, which means we're threatening the survival of that that that that that pact, you know, that tribe and inevitably our species, so nature starts to kill you off. So we get ill, our immune system starts to drop, you get suicidal, you know. And this is something that fundamentally, I think, men really desperately seek. And men do do kind of talk in their own way and they try to find that. In pubs, they try to find connection.
Jason Firmager:They try to find a a use. One of the biggest things I learned excuse me. I had an individual that stood on stage, and it's one of part of the process we do. Guys can have an opportunity to talk and have a voice in front of people that genuinely care. And, this this particular individual, stood up and he said, what this group's done for me is it means that I know that I can survive 6 days.
Jason Firmager:I've just gotta stay alive for 6 days because I know on the 7th day, I'm here with you guys. And that hit hard. We only once ever missed a week. It's because the football was on. The church venue said that football was on to the guys who watched football.
Jason Firmager:They made the mistake in, telling me incorrectly was that they didn't realize that the women were gonna turn up from the church, so we couldn't have it at the same venue. So for us, it was just missing a week. And in that week that we missed, to some men, we had people going absolutely off the rails on some very serious situations that that we had to address and and help people that was suicidal. Because for them, it was 14 days. 14 days.
Gary Johannes:What what you show that you do, and I think it's amazing, but doesn't fit every person. You know, we hear and one of the reasons we started inspired men talk is because, you know, we're as you rightly said, we're all therapists. All 5 of us here have seen many men come through the door who have been struggling, but they've reached out. They've they've got help. But it's got to fit their expectation.
Gary Johannes:You said places like, they're much more spiritual, and that and they are. However, going to India, there is as much suicide there, proportionately, as there is anywhere else in the world, and I've seen that.
Jason Firmager:Absolutely.
Gary Johannes:So, yes, the people that spirituality fits fit well.
Jason Firmager:Mhmm.
Gary Johannes:But it doesn't mean the rest of the men don't talk. And like you say, everyone else got a depth to them. Mhmm. But they all talk in their own language, their own style, their own way. Mhmm.
Gary Johannes:And we one of the things that what we wanna see is how does that how do we that is okay to talk? Okay. Because the big thing at the moment is men don't talk.
Jason Firmager:Absolutely.
Gary Johannes:Think that's fair.
Jason Firmager:Mhmm. Mhmm. Absolutely. We do talk and it it depends how they talk. I mean, to give you an idea how we've managed it.
Jason Firmager:Not every man wants to talk in the same situation. K? So we don't have men if not every man wants to talk, for example, on the Tuesday when they all meet up in a room because you got 50 50 or so people there. We have a walking group. Some individuals want to talk and they want to walk and they want to get out in nature.
Jason Firmager:In the basement of this building I'm in now, we've got arts and creative. We've got a music group. They paint. We've got guys that have stopped alcohol. They've come off cocaine.
Jason Firmager:We've got a chap who's taking 4 grams of cocaine a day. Mhmm. As soon as we we change venue because we did the art classes somewhere else, both of them started going over the top with drinking and drugs, and one of them became suicidal. As soon as we put it back downstairs in the building, there's the art classes, all of them is continually stable. So fantastic.
Jason Firmager:The did we found something? And you're talking, you know, real maturing guys. You're talking, you know, quiet guys. You're talking chaps with autism. They've all come together.
Jason Firmager:The guys that were the bully, the guys that were the bullied, they've come together and they're painting. They're creating things. How do you get that
Gary Johannes:message how do you get that message out?
Jason Firmager:To do that, what?
Gary Johannes:To to such a diverse group of people because we're not just now talking about men, we're talking about different diversities within men.
Jason Firmager:Absolutely.
Gary Johannes:How are you going, It's safe for you, the football fan. It's safe for you, the password. It's safe for you, the quite isolated introverted person. It's safe for you too. You can come and join us and be as open as you choose to be.
Jason Firmager:Because we have a tier yeah. We've created a tier system that was quite intricate. So when the individuals come along, we've got mentors there, and we have individuals. When they come along, they can take it at whatever pace they need. So we've got some neurodivergent who don't particularly like big groups or noise and that sort of thing.
Jason Firmager:So we have smaller groups at the back for for 1 individual, 2 individual. If it's one individual on their own, they're incredibly anxious about us. We have a mentor that will engage them individually, so we'll work with them individually. Then what we do is we'll find somebody else that, for example, is particularly similar, then we'll we'll slowly be able to bring them together. So you've at least got 2, and we'll take it at whatever pace they need in a slow way.
Jason Firmager:We then, the team, are sort of versed in understanding that each person's unique and treating each individual in a bespoke way to understand the mannerisms, what they need, how they operate, you know, what traumas they've been through. We have forms where we understand their history, the Dascals, how suicidal they are, what they've been through, what their interests are, who, you know, that that so we understand everything we can about these individuals. We then start to move them forward into smaller groups. For example, we've got chaps that are going through, concerns where they don't have visitation rights with their children. So we've created specific groups for those guys because that is so desperate to actually get some relatability.
Jason Firmager:And they've run out being able to talk to the friends and family and everybody else that doesn't get it because they're not it, you know, but these other individuals do. So we find the relatability. We had a chap who came on stage who was bullied all the way through school, and he became a semi professional Brazilian jiu jitsu fighter. We don't need to name names. He's quite known.
Jason Firmager:He's still on stage, and he explained how much he was bullied all the way through school, and that that was what inspired him to become this fighter. That one day, he might bump into the guy that bullied him and be able to give his 2 pence back. And, he did get to the stage where he reached out to the chatbot, but it popped up as a fake a space Facebook, contact. Excuse me. And you sent him a message.
Jason Firmager:He built the courage to send him a message. Still nervous. And he said, look. You know, you bullied me all the way through school. Do you want to meet up?
Jason Firmager:You know, this kind of thing. And the actual chap was mortified. He said that he'd struggled with the guilt of bullying all the way through his life. And actually, his father was an alcoholic. His mother was on drugs, and they were having huge domestic violence situations every single day.
Jason Firmager:And the poor lad wasn't being fed. He had to steal food, from the local shops, and he didn't know where to vent that anger and frustration. And, it it got him into all sorts of troubles and traumas through his life and he'd have therapy and everything else. What that did for the lads that were in that room that day that had been bullied is it gave them incredible understanding. What we've managed to create, to answer your question, certainly within the groups and this the energy of what we've done in this has rippled throughout the community and they've seen and heard the stories of the changes and the impacts that's happened with very known individuals in the community.
Jason Firmager:And it's almost sold itself in a sense because what what's happened is it's not just me that's saving these lives, it's the guys themselves. The connection and the understanding and the relatability in that room, the knowledge, the shared combination of knowledge is more than any therapist could ever singularly give a man. They've got understanding in so many different areas of life, whether it's sexual abuse, whether it's drugs, whether it's anger, bipolar, you know, border personality disorders, whether it's on the autism spectrum and particular interest into World of Warcraft and whatever it may be. Suddenly, they've they've got understanding. They're they're not they're not alone.
Jason Firmager:They're not a problem. They're actually another individual they've seen most of their life in the community that they always thought was didn't have issues suddenly has. Dave, the guy there that always had the girls in the car and actually he's had issues for the last 30 years, and I never knew that. You know, we've got guys in their seventies who are seeing guys there they went to school with. We've got a guy who's 86.
Jason Firmager:We've got a lad that's 17, and they're connecting. They all got something to and and I think it's the the comradeship and the openness and the model that we've created, these small groups and the talking on stage and the transparency and the disclosing and and the trust and the brotherhood has created something that if you give advice to another guy that was the bully at school, then you're only giving advice as another bully. But if you are the chap that's been bullied, then you explain how that felt to the bully. Between you both, you've got perspectives that you would have never understood. Does that make sense?
Jason Firmager:And this is what we've managed to do within the model. So what you've got is everybody really respecting every individual, and what it's done is it's helped them grow as people in ways that they've never experienced in their life. And because of that, they became friends and they've grown and it's what I've also realized is that one of the biggest concerns for men, alongside suicide and neurodivergency and everything else is actually loneliness.
Chris Johannes:That's a big one. I think that's a big one. And I think what you've created, Jason, I think you've created a fantastic environment for all these different characters, different diverse group of men to be able to do that. And it's I mean, it sounds phenomenal what you've done. It really does.
Chris Johannes:One question I've got, is Yeah. When you've I mean, you talk a lot about spirituality and and then you also backed that up with a lot with a bit of the science behind it, which is, like, I think that must speak to this bigger group. I think that's where you get that poll person there. I think because you can talk spiritually and you can talk the science behind it, I think that that appeals to a lot of different people. What I would like to know is what what your group does to, get those people to the point where not so much that they don't need to come, but where if, like you said, you have a week's break, they don't then revert back to their coping mechanisms and things like that.
Chris Johannes:What do you what's what's the end game for you guys? When you get somebody come to your doorstep, what's your end game with them?
Jason Firmager:So for me, 1st and foremost, is to create several things. Understanding, relatability, education, friendships. That's the key kind of ethos, really. Then once they're there, what men talk, aims, and executes very well is we are the one consistent in their life. We are the one thing, guys, that's not gonna disappear.
Jason Firmager:We're the one thing that's always gonna be there. We're not the 6 week Zoom call. We're not the counselor that when it finishes, you're dropped and have to go and apply for someone else. We're not the doctor that doesn't ring you back. We're not the service where you ring and you get Pam in Bradford.
Jason Firmager:Right? We're we're the not there's anything wrong with that. What I'm saying is we've got a model. We've got several WhatsApp groups. These guys are talking to each other every hour throughout the day, thousands of interactive messages, multiple groups, autism, LGBQ communities.
Jason Firmager:We've got, things on serious chat, things on general chat, banter, uplift, quiet rooms. You know, we've got hundreds of individuals on there, that are there to support each other 247, father and child groups. Upstairs in the building, we've got a hub. The guys come several times a week. They make coffees.
Jason Firmager:They come and talk. They laugh. They smile. They bring their therapy dogs. It's a home from home.
Jason Firmager:What we've created is a model in the system where guys feel part of something. So we help them through something, and they can dip out and in and out whenever and as many times as they feel they need to. We are a brokerage system where, you know, if somebody's in a bad head space, they're not gonna be in the mindset to bring around for hours and hours, getting a hold of doctors, and how do you get a hold of this, and how do you get a hold of that. It's just not gonna happen. We built the connections.
Jason Firmager:I'm getting referrals from the crisis team. I'm not supposed to get referrals from the crisis team, guys. But a few individuals there care so passionate about their individuals that they understand person centered approach. And if we didn't get those referrals, we would have 4 people dead. We're getting referrals from Maritime Medway Hospital, from the psychiatric team.
Jason Firmager:We're not connected to the NHS officially, but the entire team know of us because they've heard of the great work we've done, and they're referring individuals because we're saving lives. We've got the council fully backing us. We've got sir Paul Austin who's a deputy lieutenant to King Charles. We've got Helen Waitley who's the MP for Faversham. Gordon Henderson.
Jason Firmager:You know? It's
Gary Johannes:It's what you do. It sounds amazing, and it can the connections and support and the trust you have from of, medical support teams and
Jason Firmager:It's fantastic.
Benn Baker-Pollard:They
Gary Johannes:they they massively trust you. So that's fantastic.
Jason Firmager:It it really is.
Gary Johannes:I I don't think I heard the answer in there. Mhmm. What happens when if it was me, when I'm better? Or are you saying I'm never better?
Jason Firmager:No. What I'm saying is as much and what what I mentioned earlier is as much as you need or want the service, it's there for you to dip in and out and in and out. Yeah. So you can gain as much as you want from the group. We had an individual who came because they're lonely Mhmm.
Jason Firmager:And they come for the social aspect. It's that simple. You know? And they they come and they talk and they meet and they go for beer after and they love they've got a they've got this this life now, these friends that understand them. They're not gonna be judged.
Jason Firmager:They can talk they can be themselves. They can we've got one individual who's incredibly autistic. Suddenly, he's not the weird guy. You know? People understand him, and he can talk about his quirky things, and he can behave how he wants to behave.
Jason Firmager:Everybody loves him for who he is. There's no judgment. And and everybody looks out for him and and and, you know, we we have an individual who, struggling with work, and he had no income. He, wanted medication for for post traumatic stress. I found the money for him through a sponsor, and we got him privately diagnosed at Kim's hospital.
Jason Firmager:Got it paid for. He was, dyslexic and illiterate. He he couldn't he struggled to to do the process, so we did everything for him. And now he's got the medication he needs and he's happy and he's, you know, he said the group can be as much for for whatever you need it to be. We've we've also now just lost support for for the men's wives.
Jason Firmager:Because, you know, if you've gone through mental health in a household, what's the point in helping a guy on a Tuesday and he goes home for the rest of 6 days and his wife's depressed? And that mental health may have come from his partner. It may have come from him. It may be from the kids. So we've now got WhatsApp threads and chats and a meeting, on Sundays upstairs for the wives and the partners so that we're supporting the entire system.
Benn Baker-Pollard:I think that's a a key point, isn't it? You know, when someone's ill, it's not just the individual that is affected. The illness travels through everybody that's connected to that person, the close friends and the family. So we end up with that yeah. Exactly.
Benn Baker-Pollard:You're saying, Gary, the ripple effect. I'm conscious, Jason. We're coming up to 40 minutes. We've had a load of information so far and lots of stuff come out of it. Pete, we've not really heard from you.
Benn Baker-Pollard:Do you have any questions, mate?
Peter Ely:I do. I've seen on LinkedIn, there's a couple of other people that are starting men's mental health charities, and I think that's wonderful. What advice Jason, what what kind of things would you say that could help people that wanted to start the charity about Roundup men's mental health?
Jason Firmager:Good question. It's not the matter. It's not really a matter of logistics. I would say think very carefully before you do it. It's it's not something to take lightly.
Jason Firmager:I've been on bridges at 2:30 in the morning, pulling individuals off hanging off the edge of a bridge. I've had tip offs. 1 of the chaps has disappeared. I've gone into an apartment, found them half dead, 2, 3 bottles of vodka's there, and had to get them through detox. And, of the the 20 people's lives that we've saved, 19 of them have been there in the moment.
Jason Firmager:And it's not something that's a 9 to 5 job. This is something that it's 1 in the morning, it's 3 in the morning, it's 5 in the morning. This isn't something that most mental health charities have the ability or the emotional capacity or the infrastructure, and the finance we buy them to do. There's many mental health groups out there. Many.
Jason Firmager:It's very easy to set up a a local talking group. But what people don't see, and I've not touched on 5%, but 5% of the infrastructure that we've got underneath this, it's a lot more complex than you can imagine. And I would say that if you're gonna do it, you must be prepared for the sacrifice. You must be prepared for the giving a little of yourself more than you, you know, making sure that you've got the ability to do that because this is no game. This isn't this isn't being a therapist at 9 to 5 and and and and switching your professional, you know, putting your professional hat up and going home to family.
Jason Firmager:This is something that if you get that phone call at 10 o'clock at night and you're not there, that's a life potentially lost. And what we've created is something that we're there 247, wherever it's needed. And the team, the men themselves, the camaraderie, the ethos, everybody has each other's back, and that's not something that can be set up lightly. And then so my advice is unless you can commit to absolute wholehearted personal centered approach and give everything you've got, every single thing you've got and not think, well, it's my dinner time. Don't do it.
Gary Johannes:So that's why straightforward, you've made it quite clear that it's not easy. Takes a lot of effort, a lot of commitment, and you've gotta do it for the right reasons. But do we need them? Do we need men's mental health groups?
Jason Firmager:Sad answer to that question is yes. We do. We really do. And we shouldn't have to need to, if I'm honest. Should we do.
Jason Firmager:We do. And I think it's having the outlet. And and like we said, some individuals will just need the outlet, and we'll be quite happy with the, you know, meeting up once a week and things like that. But, you know, there is a demographic absolutely that would benefit from that. But as we said earlier, as we had that discussion, there's a lot of different types of of individuals, and some individuals are gonna need a lot more, support than others.
Jason Firmager:And, actually, sometimes and what I give a very, very direct warning to is sometimes when you open the door to somebody and they open up, some people can be a lot more, needing that consistency and that connection than others. And, sometimes by opening that door and not being able to be there as much as they expect can actually be the direct precursor to suicide in itself.
Gary Johannes:No. Absolutely. Is there a different levels of it, though? So you've gone big deep. You've you you work with people And open your doors, more importantly, to people who from every walk of life, from every level of of anguish and aspiration.
Gary Johannes:But is there other layers to it where somebody can go, I've got something. I wanna support people. I've been through this, and they can make it very clear what their level is so the there is some support for some people, or is it all or nothing?
Jason Firmager:I think if you're distinct in what it is you're offering if you said, you know, look. We're gonna meet have a coffee and chat group on a Thursday evening and a bit of a games night for men just to have a bit of a laugh and let their hair down and have a have a chat. I think if you manage it in in in the right way, absolutely, that can be doable. 100%. But I think if you're going to open the door and go down the route of, listen.
Jason Firmager:You know, this is mental health in general, and we're gonna get you through and you're not alone and this kind of thing, you must be prepared, fully prepared. You're gonna get every type of walker nature come through that door. You're gonna get people we've had a chat that's turned up with a duffel bag and a rope who's already chosen a tree. And he saw a poster and he thought, well, instead of walking to that tree, I'm actually gonna walk to the group. You know?
Jason Firmager:And you've got to be prepared to deal with that. And and even if you are, as soon as you put the word mental health and support of any nature, you've got to be prepared for this. And if you're not prepared for that and they don't feel that it's understood or it's not, you know you you know, you've gotta be prepared. What do you do in that situation? Where do you put that individual?
Jason Firmager:How do you deal with that situation? How do you manage that?
Benn Baker-Pollard:That leads to, I guess, the question that we ask everybody who comes on the show, Jason, and then we kinda wrap it up a little bit towards the end is for those people who are maybe listening, who are struggling, and maybe in that sort of decision making moment of where do they go looking for their light at the end of the tunnel, so to speak.
Jason Firmager:Mhmm.
Benn Baker-Pollard:What would be your one piece of advice for those people who maybe do need to make that first step to get help?
Jason Firmager:I would say talk. Talk to people. Open up, you know, and and don't keep it within yourself. There's a lot of great groups out there. Andy Mann's Club's another one.
Jason Firmager:If you look in the right places, there are some brilliant ones online actually, all across the UK. I think Adi Man's Club is predominantly sort of central northern England. They're brilliant. Fantastic. Can't recommend them high enough.
Jason Firmager:For me, it's not competitive. It's just making sure that, you know, the opportunities are there, but it's the right opportunities, guys. You know? I've seen a lot of men's men's charities set up. I had a story where one individual and this is this is what really breaks my heart just briefly.
Jason Firmager:I've got one chap who's a lovely, lovely guy. He became suicidal because he joined a men's mental health group, and, he moved 3 miles down the road, and they've he'd been there for a year and a half. He bought the jumpers. He was involved, and they banned him. Took him off social media.
Jason Firmager:Blocked him. Said, sorry. You're no longer in our remit in our area. You know? So not every group is made equal, and that's that's that's what what I say be careful of.
Jason Firmager:Just do your research, and and talk to people. You'd be surprised at how many people actually, certainly post COVID, are more open with mental health now. I think, historically, it's something that we it was a very scary thing for men to talk about, including myself back in the day. You know? But I think with Paddy Pimlet, the UFC fighter, with, the likes of Tyson Fury and a few of these household names, have been very open.
Jason Firmager:So without the sport, they, you know, they would be here or they lost friends to suicide, and I think I think it's become a lot more acceptable. I would say, you know, there's a lot on TikTok now, on the social medias about mental health. It's a lot more accepted. So I would say reach out and you might may find more connection in it than than you think, but don't leave it. I would say, make sure that you keep yourself busy.
Jason Firmager:Any goal is a is a goal. Making your bed, getting up, setting yourself short achievable rituals where you feel you're succeeding in something. It doesn't matter what it is. Going for a walk. It doesn't matter how big it is.
Jason Firmager:It doesn't needs to be changing the world with a big business and money. If you're able physical activity from day dot, and if anyone's hearing this, get up tomorrow. It doesn't matter if you do 1 push up. Next week, do 2, and then 10. Keep physical.
Jason Firmager:Give yourself goals and things to obtain and achieve, a sense of purpose, just something, anything, and I think that will certainly help. We're always there, and even if it's a phone call, if anyone listening and if you do struggle and you just wanna chat and just say, look. I need to put the help or and even if we're not in the area that you are, we've always got a spare minute to say hi and to try and help a fellow guy. Alright? And, if we can help or put you in the right direction, absolutely, we will.
Jason Firmager:And that's what we're about. We're a heart led group of individuals, and we're all doing it for because we get it and we've been through it. And I think this is where
Benn Baker-Pollard:I think what's clear, Jason, is your passion for what you do. It comes out in in heaps and volumes, and it's clear that this for you is something that is from the heart. It's not, you know, a a business or something that ticks the box. It is something that you're investing your entire life into doing, which is, you know, commendable at every level. Yeah.
Benn Baker-Pollard:If people wanna find you, Jason, where do we go? How do we get in touch?
Jason Firmager:Yeah. So there's a website. So it's mentalk hyphen health dot org. And mentalk is men and then talk as in speaking as opposed to mental. It's a play on words.
Jason Firmager:Mentalk hyphen health dot org, and you'll find my contact details on there as well, and do any of the teams on the sort of consultation form and things like that as well. And I just think I'd like to say thank you to all of yourselves for sharing this conversation. I think you're all doing outstanding work raising awareness to the podcast, and I think it's things like this and initiatives like this, guys, that's gonna help change and, you know, if one person hears this and it helps them through something, this was absolutely worth it. And, I think That's probably good. Absolutely.
Jason Firmager:I really appreciate it. And any help I can do with that, the better. And we've got a podcast coming up soon, so we've got some equipment I was talking to Ben about, and then we'll get you guys on there. Yeah. Absolutely.
Jason Firmager:Awesome. Absolutely. Is there anything else you want to ask me, guys?
Gary Johannes:Do you have any social media pages?
Jason Firmager:We do. You can find the links and everything through the website. We do. We have a Facebook. We try to sort of stick to one thing, really.
Jason Firmager:We we've just dabbled in Instagram, but we're trying to do one thing and do it well, really. And, but we are gonna try and hit more of the sort of, TikTok and Instagram and for the sort of younger audiences and Snapchat things. But I think at the moment, I just believe in trying to not trying to do everything at once. Do one thing, do it right.
Gary Johannes:Do it well. Fantastic.
Jason Firmager:And do it well. Yeah. Rather than spread yourself yourself too thin and then be a drip in the ocean, we'd rather sort of, you know, dominate as much as we can in one area. And it's kind of what we've done, really. Awesome, mate.
Jason Firmager:Work. Thank you.
Benn Baker-Pollard:Thanks, Jason.
Chris Johannes:Yeah. Fantastic job, Jason. Thank you so much, guys. Thank you. I mean, thank you doing what you're doing and thank you for sharing and coming on the podcast and getting it out there a bit more.
Chris Johannes:Yeah.
Gary Johannes:I think
Jason Firmager:it's a pleasure. Pleasure.
Chris Johannes:Pleasure to
Jason Firmager:meet you. To, give me a shout. Thank you, guys. Yeah. Thank you.
Jason Firmager:Bye bye.
Gary Johannes:Thank you for listening to the podcast that proves men do talk.
Benn Baker-Pollard:If you would like more information or support, then please visit inspired to change dotbiz,
Peter Ely:where you can learn more about us and the Inspire to Change team.
Chris Johannes:And remember, the conversation continues on our social media at inspiredmentalk.
