Why Dating Feels Impossible for Men | The Truth About Modern Relationships & Mental Health
Hello and welcome to another episode of Inspired Men Talk. It's 2025 and we're back. And my name is Peter Ely. I'm a solution focused hypnotherapist. I work with clients who struggle with fears and phobias, as well as people who are looking after their self care or need help with their self care.
Peter Ely:And with me, as always, we have the very lovely Gary Johannes. Gary, hello, and welcome.
Gary Johannes:Well, hello, Peter. I've never been described as lovely before, so I'll check that. Yeah. I'm a solution focused practitioner. We work with clients.
Gary Johannes:I also teach people to be practitioners too. But the main aim and my main love is helping people become the very best versions of themselves, whether it's one to many or one to one.
Peter Ely:Fantastic. Thank you, Gary. And with us as well is Ben Baker Bollard. Hello, Ben.
Benn Baker-Pollard:Hi, Peter. Hi, everybody. Nice to be back in 2025. But, yeah, I'm Ben Baker Pollard, again, another solution focused hypnotherapist. I also lecture with Gary and just look at bringing different perspectives to mental health, particularly men's mental health, wherever we can so that we can try and help and support other people.
Peter Ely:Wonderful. Thank you very much, Ben. And with us, as always, we have a fantastic guest. And this year, it's March. It's it's spring and young people's minds turn to love.
Peter Ely:And I know alright. I'm not young, but my mind's
Eamer Draper:turned to love.
Peter Ely:And we've brought on a fantastic guest, Ima Draper, who is a dating coach. Hello, Ima.
Eamer Draper:Hi. Thanks for having me. All people are thinking of love surely at all times of the year.
Gary Johannes:Oh, I
Peter Ely:don't know about that. Excellent. So Eema, would you like to just introduce yourself to our listeners and tell us a little bit about you?
Eamer Draper:Yeah. So I am Emer. I go by the alias, the straight talking dating coach because I don't really believe in all the BS that we create around dating and love. I think we're all human. We're all built for connection.
Eamer Draper:And it feels like a really tough scene at the moment, and I think people are struggling to find that connection, which is what led me to start Enkindling Dating Coaching, which is coaching people to enable them to, yeah, just kinda cut out all that noise, focus on what they want, and take actionable steps to achieving the love and relationship that they want. So there's me, but there's also some other coaches that work with me as well that bring different perspectives. And, yeah, it's just empowering people to feel in control of their love lives instead of feeling like dating apps are kicking them down.
Peter Ely:Yeah. They're horrible. They are horrible. Dating apps are a terrible, terrible thing.
Eamer Draper:Well, I met my husband through Tinder, so I am biased.
Peter Ely:Hey, Dokes. Well, talking then from your experience of what you do, this is obviously a men's mental health podcast, and dating is part men, part women, obviously. But I'm gonna focus on the men's aspect because I I've been single for a while, and it can be really horrible out there as you as you rightly say. From your experience of of what you do and how you've been working, how does dating affect men's mental health in this wider world? And do you have any kind of common struggles that men face in that world?
Eamer Draper:Yeah. I think, really, I think it comes down to confidence and self esteem, and I think it can get quite knocked. Like, regardless of the fact that we are in the twenty first century using very twenty first century methods, I e dating apps, the expectation is still that men do the asking first, men do the messaging first. And I think on the surface, it may feel like as a a man that it is easier to deal with, you know, asking and possibly getting rejected through your phone because it's not as intimidating as going up to, you know, the old school, go to a gaggle of women in a bar and try to pick one of them off. And, actually, I think it's having much more detrimental impact because in that old setting where you went up and you tried to chat somebody up in a bar and she turned around and went, no thanks.
Eamer Draper:You unpacked your mates. You were the butt of a joke for about five minutes, and then you forgot about it, and you went on with your night. Whereas if you're at home sending out messages after message and getting absolute tumbleweed back every evening, that has to be impacting the self esteem. And a lot of what I do is is trying to get people to see each other's perspectives because I think there's a lot of echo chambers now, and it's very easy. You can see women sit there and say, dating apps are terrible.
Eamer Draper:All the men are lazy. They're all just after this. It's all the guy's fault, and it's all the technology's fault. And that's not the case. Everyone is different, and everyone has a different challenge.
Eamer Draper:And it's trying to flip it and say, well, actually, you know, if a guy sent a message that just said hi today, maybe he crafted 10 beautiful ones yesterday, but nobody responded to him. It doesn't make him a bad person that he just sent a hi message. It's like trying to get break through all those kind of stereotypes and just get people to see that we're all the same. We're all looking for connection, and we all have good days and bad days in that.
Peter Ely:Yeah. No. It's very true. And and it's funny you talk about kind of the olden style of dating because I'm sure Gary met his wife pre apps.
Gary Johannes:But was it like I let my wife pre Internet. I I'm not joking.
Eamer Draper:Don't believe that existed.
Gary Johannes:No. Seriously. Well, I I mean, it was pre CDs. Hello. Seriously.
Eamer Draper:I'm assuming a good mix tape was involved then.
Benn Baker-Pollard:We're talking vinyl, Emma. Vinyl. Vinyl.
Gary Johannes:And the reason I'm talking vinyl so much is she worked in a record shop. So there you go. So I had to buy music even when I didn't like it just to talk. And you then sort of like slowly which surely get the coverage up when you buy the records you don't want but to ask that question, all those questions. So it's very, very different.
Gary Johannes:And and Peter's right. My wife I've been married forty odd years. Mhmm. It brings that fear for me. So I know Peter's possibly on the dating scene or or something.
Gary Johannes:He's single. But I've been married for forty years. If I was to become single, which I don't expect to, but you never know. And I don't know where I would start, and my my expectations of fear are huge or would be huge or not actually huge, but they would be if I was put in that place. I don't know how to play the new game.
Eamer Draper:Yeah. Yeah. And, actually, most of my clients tend to fall into two different buckets. Either they've been dating for a long time, and they're just completely jaded by the scene and started to lose hope, and they're just like, don't know what else to try. Or they're back on the dating scene for whatever reason, you know, relationship breakdown or maybe bereavement.
Eamer Draper:And exactly what you just said is that, what what happened? I don't know what this is. And in a way, it I feel like the the ways or the technology kind of really distracts from the essence of what you're trying to do is meet somebody to build a life with. And we just get caught up. Like, as soon as you mentioned dating, people talk about apps and usually complain about them.
Eamer Draper:And it's not. The they're just the steps to find the person. Really, it's it's deeper, and it's about you and what you're trying to build.
Gary Johannes:Yeah.
Benn Baker-Pollard:I think the biggest thing for me is that we have this presentation on online that we've all gotta be perfect.
Eamer Draper:Mhmm.
Benn Baker-Pollard:And we've all gotta be a particular image, gotta look up a certain way. And if you're not going down the gym five days a week and have a six pack when all the rest of it that comes with it, or or you're as for the female side, not in shape trim and not on that diet and everything else that, actually, there's no one there for you. You there isn't actually even a space for you on this app because we're only looking for those people.
Eamer Draper:Yeah. Which, again, I think is, like, a complete like, it's a fallacy. It's definitely the narrative that's around it, but there is somebody for everybody. And, you know, like, when I met my husband, I was at the heaviest weight I'd been. And in a way, I kinda talk to clients about, like, it's kind of a bit of a a filter for the people that you don't want.
Eamer Draper:If they're just judging you on you're not the perfect size, then that is not somebody you wanna spend a life with. Because I've since had two kids, I've put on even more weight. Like, would he be running for the hills? Because I'm not what I look like on my profile picture. Like, that's not what a relationship is built on.
Eamer Draper:And then
Gary Johannes:they'll have to be Spartacus. No.
Eamer Draper:Oh. There's somebody for everyone, isn't there?
Benn Baker-Pollard:I think also email, and you might be able to debunk this myth. But I think there's a lot of present sort of perception that actually these dating apps are just full of weirdos and perverts who just send their dicks everywhere and and all the rest of it and wanna get peeve just, you know, get get a response, provoke it, or interfere or impose themselves on other people's lives. I I I know we're talking men's men to health. I suppose there's a gay side of that as much as there is a straight side. And how how how was your experience on the dating app in terms of that kind of myth that
Eamer Draper:I mean, if you if you're asking me if I had a dick pic, I've never had a dick pic. If that's the basis of your question.
Gary Johannes:But but but then then we'll happily send you one if you
Eamer Draper:really No. Thank you. Unsolicited dick pics are illegal and can be reported.
Gary Johannes:You already know that then.
Eamer Draper:No. To to be more serious, like, I think that that's like, you're basically opening up this massive pool. Right? And there's not much way of filtering out whether somebody is an aggressive person or is just looking after their own interest or just interested in x, y, or zed rather than the same thing as you. And we try to do that by, you know, being really explicit in we're looking for long term, and these are my values, and this is what I'm looking for.
Eamer Draper:And you like to think that attracts like people and like minded people, but it doesn't necessarily. And I think for me, I was with clients. I separate out and I say, okay. Well, the app part is the lead generation. Right?
Eamer Draper:That is casting the net fairly wide, putting as many people into the bucket as you can, and then you filter through. But what we tend to see is that people, because of all that kind of fear mongering that is out there, get, you know, kind of like, oh, well, I must, like, message to the last nth degree to find out everything I can about this person before I agree to meet them. And, actually, it would have been way quicker just to meet them for a coffee, and you'd know within ten minutes that this is not the person for you. And, yeah, I think there are weirdos and not savory characters out there, but I think 99% of people are good, ultimately. There's some shady behavior sometimes, and that can come down to timing.
Eamer Draper:But I I think if we can instead of being constantly in that fear mindset of, like, oh, I mustn't do this because that might lead to that, if we can be more kinda you almost have to force yourself into seeing loving opportunities because our brains naturally look for fear. Right? And like a really kind of base one, I'm I wear red lipstick pretty much all the time. You're told in dating, don't wear red lipstick because it's seen as promiscuous. That will be seen as you're just looking for.
Eamer Draper:And I'm like, I like red lipstick. I work in fashion. I'm gonna wear red lipstick. Like, it just it somebody's gonna judge me because of the lipstick I'm wearing and make all these assumptions, then that's not the person for you.
Benn Baker-Pollard:So it's not riddled with crazy lunatics like it's perceived in the media then?
Eamer Draper:I mean, there there are some, but I don't think it's to the extent that, like, media is gonna sensationalize everything. And there are fake profiles. There are catfishers. There are scammers who are based in god knows where. And the the reality is to filter those out, you ask to meet them in person because they can't show up.
Eamer Draper:And that's when they'll go running for the hills. There's also I mean, Tinder did some surveys on this. There was I can't even remember the numbers now, but a fairly high percentage of people that are on Tinder that absolutely no intention to meet somebody in person because maybe they're married, maybe they're, you know, just a bit bored, maybe they're bedridden and they can't physically get out to meet people, but they can keep this kind of bit of dopamine hit and excitement going on. And, again, if you're in that space where you're like, I'm gonna send all these messages and find out everything about you, you're feeding into it. And it's almost like if you just, well, you know, find the strategy that works for you, but, essentially, you wanna be efficient when you're in the app world and then get to meet the person in real life and see what happens.
Eamer Draper:And the the weirdos and the catfishes and scammers will fall away at that point, and that's good.
Gary Johannes:What did you say with that? Because I'm completely naive about this subject. Mhmm. I quite like that because I'll ask questions which I ain't got a clue what they mean, which is normally for me. But what you just described is like, yes.
Gary Johannes:There's good and there's bad. Would you say that's a society norm? So if I was just going down the pub or going in the old fashioned nightclubs, they used to be it is exactly the same. It's just moved online rather than on the high street as it were. Would you say that's balanced anyway?
Eamer Draper:Yeah. And I guess, it it might feel like, it almost feels a bit more visceral because the numbers are bigger. Right? You know, if if you walked into a nightclub and there was 300 people there, you could scan the room in about five minutes and find the three people that you might be interested in, and you'd probably find the five or six that you wanted to stay well care of. But when you have to swipe through a profile 300 times to get to that same outcome, it probably feels more of a issue or more of a weight than it is in in real life, I guess.
Peter Ely:It is. It's it's it can feel really difficult out there. And it's funny, I was out at an event the other day, and I stepped backwards and bumped into someone and ended up having an amazing conversation with her. Now my luck is that she was actually leaving the country and moving to Madrid, so that that kinda didn't work out for me. But it you're right.
Peter Ely:You can you can look around a room and see people very quickly where you can't really look around the Internet. Right? It's it's not as easy. But you've mentioned I wanna go back a little bit. You've mentioned I think you said it to me before that there was a survey that done that that about 80% of people on on dating apps are men.
Eamer Draper:Yeah. Tinder's 80%. Bumble is 70% men, and Hinge is 60% men. But yeah.
Peter Ely:You you looked at kinda I mean, that that really helped me knowing that fact
Gary Johannes:Mhmm.
Peter Ely:Helped me when I wasn't getting responses. Right? That kind of gave me a bit of a driver to actually go out and meet people in person.
Eamer Draper:Mhmm.
Peter Ely:But you've talked again about that rejection that that men get, especially on those on those apps. What kind of advice can you give to people to help them when they're when they're doing that, when they're sitting scrolling through and not getting anything back?
Eamer Draper:There's a couple of things. One is you're looking for one person. So, unfortunately, rejection is part of the process. Right? Because you're gonna reject people, people are gonna reject you, but you're doing that to get to the one person that is right for you.
Eamer Draper:And I don't believe, like, there's only one person out there for everyone. I don't believe in this concept of the one. I think there's many, and it comes down to space and time who you end up with. But, you know, ultimately, if you wanna be in a forty year marriage, that's with one person. So it's like just it sounds trivial, but you have to accept that rejection is part of it.
Eamer Draper:And then it's reframing it, whatever way works for you, whether it is, you know, one of my clients use the word the term rejection is protection, as in that person wasn't right for me. It would've led me down a path that wasn't right for me. So rejection is is protection in this instance. Or if you wanna just think, fine. They got hit by a bus, which is a bit horrible to think.
Eamer Draper:Many people are getting hit by a bus. But, like, we get, like, so like, that it's about me, that that rejection is a personal attack on on me, and it's not. They don't know you. They know nothing about you. They're making this decision based off a few pictures.
Eamer Draper:You've no idea what their story is. Like, they could be going through their own challenges where they go, oh, I'm gonna, you know, date and I'm gonna download an app and and that lasts for about two days. And then they just leave it, you know, in the ether. And, like, the other thing to recognize is apps are, you know, technology, algorithms, businesses. So, you know, my background is fashion ecommerce, and we put the most popular dresses or jackets or trousers or whatever to the top of the page to get the most clicks that we could.
Eamer Draper:So you can be pretty guaranteed that whatever goes on in the algorithms that we know nothing about, they're doing the same. They're putting the most partner profiles in front of everybody. And, you know, that it might even be like that profile hasn't been active for six months. But if the numbers on Tinder are 80% men and only 20% women, they're not hiding the inactive profiles. They're still showing those.
Eamer Draper:So it's like, you know, whatever story you need to build for yourself that tells you, this is fine. It's just part of the thing. It's nothing to do with me. I'm and, like, it's you know, you go back to yourself and go, what are the things I like about myself? What values do I have that are strong to me?
Eamer Draper:What do my friends and family love about me? What do I bring to a relationship? And I think about all that you've achieved, all you've overcome, all you do for other people. And are you gonna make somebody a good partner? Absolutely.
Eamer Draper:Everybody, most 90 I could say 99% of people out there will make somebody a good partner. And it's like really grounding yourself in that. So that then the not getting an answer to a message is just like, oh, well, that's it. It's like, it's cut down a bit of admin or it's wasn't the one for me or it was a fake profile or, like, whatever you need to tell yourself so that it's not hitting that grounding that you have in yourself of I'm a good person. I will make somebody a good partner, and I'm just looking for one person.
Peter Ely:I like that. I like the rejection is protection. I think that's
Gary Johannes:a lot of people.
Peter Ely:Yeah. Any anything that rhymes really wins
Gary Johannes:a boat. Is that right?
Peter Ely:Simple simple mind. Green eggs and ham. That's me. You're very easy, Peter. I really am.
Peter Ely:Right? I really am. One of the one of the things that comes up a lot now. Right? I'm not very social media y person.
Peter Ely:I'm not very good at all of that. But one of the things that comes up around dating now are kind of red flags and green flags. So, a, can you explain what the terms are about? And what kind of things do you talk to your clients about and say, you know, this is a red flag. These are things that you should be kind of concerned about or at least put on your radar.
Eamer Draper:Yeah. So red flags are things that give you an indication that this person is not gonna be good for you. So I'm trying to think, like, it could be you have quite aggressive behavior or manipulative behavior, or, you know, it could be that they're saying they're just into casual and you're know you want long term. And then the green flags are obviously the signs that this could be a good match for you. And that could be, you know, that you enjoyed the person's company, that you felt good in yourself when you're in their company, that you laughed.
Eamer Draper:I personally don't really like this whole flags thing because I think that brings you very much into the the head space, which we do need to match head and heart when it comes to relationships. But if you're your love is a feeling and that you feel it in your body. And if we're constantly sitting there assessing somebody to look for flags and green flags and red flags and checklists, then that's disconnecting you from what feels right. I do think we all have really good gut instinct, but we disconnect from it because we just crowd ourselves with all this information and consuming other people's opinions. And, actually, if you can spend some time sitting with yourself on what do I want out of a relationship?
Eamer Draper:What is a relationship gonna feel like? So then when you're meeting somebody, if you can find that moment of pause and it can be just, like, you know, when you're waiting for your turn at the bar or you've gone to the the toilet that you just stop and go, how do I feel? And if there's something in you that feels a bit uncomfortable, like I, you know, I'm performing an act or I I'm, you know, not trying to steer the conversation away from certain things or, like, something that feels like you're a bit on edge, then that's possibly not a good sign. So I've re yeah. There's loads and loads of noise about flags, and I actually don't really know.
Eamer Draper:You know, I just think trust yourself.
Gary Johannes:It sounded to me when you were just explaining the red flags and the green flags. All I could hear was that creates anxiety. It's like we we put in a mechanism where you're focusing on the red flags or the red flags.
Eamer Draper:Mhmm.
Gary Johannes:In itself, quates the anxiety because you're looking for problems day one rather than just you know? So I can almost see a crate of anxiety, particularly in the people who are already wary of doing it. So that's that's a shame, I think.
Eamer Draper:Yeah. And I think, like, if if people have had particularly challenging past relationships, then it makes sense that you are gonna be in that space where you're looking for, oh, I don't wanna repeat this. But, actually, I think it takes the power away from you a little bit. And if you spend more time with yourself going through, okay. Well, you know, what was the pattern that I've identified, and how can I spot that pattern again in myself, in trusting myself, and knowing that I can trust my gosh rather than
Gary Johannes:It's a very interesting thing because Ben's the next place, but Peter's work security are used to a night above bars? And we're really quite good at reading that instinct, that feeling whether even ages before there's a problem, we could feel it. It's
Eamer Draper:a feeling.
Gary Johannes:And I think you get the same in when you like someone or don't like someone, and it's just trust in that rather than look at what should tick or whether they have got red lipstick on or whatever. Just go around and feel.
Eamer Draper:Yeah. And I love that you've just you've pulled that out, like, not to get too gendered, but I would think those three professions that you've just pulled out are relatively male gendered. Right? And whereas you hear me saying, like, trust your gut, trust your feelings, your intuition, I can see a lot of guys kinda women. Whereas in a very real sense, in a very, probably, quite masculine dominant areas, you were like, yeah.
Eamer Draper:We trust her gut to know when something was off.
Benn Baker-Pollard:Yeah. I suppose, you know, men are falling to this romance scam idea, aren't they? Where they're they're being pulled out of money. So I guess the guys aren't trusting their instincts or or paying attention to some of those red flags maybe that that they should do that. They're getting drawn in quite easily by people who obviously spend their life grooming people on the Internet to gain that on professionals.
Benn Baker-Pollard:So I think it's there's that element to it as well. I suppose it's about making sure we can equip people to spot those scams just like whether it's a phone call you get that say your bank's been money's been taken out of your bank account, etcetera. But at the same time, not making it so transactional that we lose the human element.
Gary Johannes:Because Yeah.
Eamer Draper:Well, the the the easiest way to shake those scammers out is to ask to meet in person because they're not actually interested in meeting you. Mhmm. And
Benn Baker-Pollard:then some convoluted story at the back of it as to why they can't.
Eamer Draper:Yeah. And if you stay true to that, well, I wanna meet you, and it will feel like rejection when they go, oh, no. Actually, x y zed reason. But they can't because they are not who they say they are. So, again, it it's nothing to do with you.
Gary Johannes:That that phrase what make Peter very happy and comes straight into play there, you know, protection protection.
Peter Ely:Yeah. Well, I've had so that's exactly it. I've had a few scammers, right, on on apps. Yeah. And I've done exactly that.
Peter Ely:I've asked that question, let's meet up. Oh, I can't meet this day because no problem. Let's meet up. And all of a sudden, you know, after sort of two or three, I can't meet you up, this isn't actually a real person. And I've I've caught a few doing it.
Peter Ely:So, yeah, it's it's a really good thing, and I do like that whole rejection is protection.
Gary Johannes:Peter, if they were real people and they still couldn't meet up, it's almost a red flag in itself as in it's not gonna work anyway because they just don't find me important enough to
Peter Ely:Yeah.
Gary Johannes:This and that. So win win.
Peter Ely:Yeah. Very much so. Because ultimately, as you as you rightly say, Mary, it's about, for me anyway, wanting to find someone as a life partner. But this isn't all about me, and I don't wanna turn the podcast into a podcast about Peter. So we talked a little bit about, you know, worst case scenario for Gary, he has to get back into the dating pool.
Peter Ely:What advice would you give to people who are having to get into the dating pool after being in a long term relationship?
Eamer Draper:Well, I would I kinda be clear on what it is that you want, and, you know, that can change. Sometimes it is that I just need a little bit of fun right now, and that's fine as long as you're open in communicating that. And sometimes it can be just like, actually, you know, I'm ready for the next thing, and I do want serious. But I think sometimes, like, on apps, particularly, there's the option of, like, looking for a long time but open to casual. And it's like, well, there are two different things.
Eamer Draper:And it's, like, you know, just be clear about what it is that you want and what you bring and and have that kind of sense of, you know, I'm feeling good and secure in myself before, like, I'm just gonna throw myself into it. Probably work on some pictures because this is one of the pitfalls that men fall into particularly of I'm just gonna take a selfie, and that'll do. So you might wanna ask some friends to take some pictures, put some thought into what you write in the profile. So, you know, I think I think this is one of the reasons why Tinder is so many men because it's easy. You can put up a few pictures and a couple of lines of text, and that's it.
Eamer Draper:It's done. It doesn't feel as scary as when you're faced with a hinge, which is, like, fill in all these prompts and all these questions and try to make it conversational and stuff. And I think that can feel intimidating and scary, particularly if it's not something you've done before. But, actually, if you put a bit of effort upfront, then you will probably have better success. And I will move it off talking online because there's obviously lots of other things you can do as well.
Eamer Draper:But one thing that I do think there's a real sense of is, like, either kind of whether it's fear or laziness or whatever it is, it's like, I'm not gonna put much effort into this. And And I think there's a bit of, like, rejection might feel softer if it's like I didn't put loads of effort in and then got rejected. It was like it was just something I kinda did. But the fact that you're not putting effort in is leading to rejection. It becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.
Eamer Draper:And there's this real sense of, like, frustration with my female clients that men are just not bothering. It's like I get a high. I ask a question. I get an answer. I don't get a question back.
Eamer Draper:There's no like, that whole conversational skill seems to get lost, and it's it is a self fulfilling prophecy that is not gonna go anywhere. So it's like this kind of malaise of either both sides are putting an effort or one side putting effort and get annoyed that the other side isn't, and then it just falls down. So, you know, I I think online can feel like a scary thing that you don't wanna and maybe there's more stigma for men really about putting effort into dating feels, you know, uncomfortable, but actually it's the same as anything else in life. You know, if you put effort into your fitness, you're gonna get better results. If you put effort into your career, you're gonna get better results.
Eamer Draper:Who you spend the rest of your life with surely is important enough to put some effort into. So that's a kinda online space. But then I would also say like, I say to everyone, consider it like a three pronged approach of, like, you're gonna do online dating because it opens up a pool of people, and that might lead you to something that you wouldn't meet otherwise. But also get out to events, whether that is single events or it's networking events or it's taking up new hobbies that just widens your social circle, push yourself out, push the comfort zone, push yourself to talk to strangers because, you know, it's quite nice just to remind it that actually because you can get into in app world, like, oh, women are all this. And actually, if you force yourself out to talk to women, you go, oh, she was lovely.
Eamer Draper:She's not for me, but she was lovely. And it's nice to remind it that we're all humans. And just be open. Like, tell your your friends and your family that you're looking to meet somebody because Mhmm. Particularly if you're coming back on the scene after forty years, they're just gonna assume you're fine on your own.
Eamer Draper:That's it. Confirm bachelor. And it's just like, no.
Gary Johannes:It's an interesting thing. So go right back to where you started where some apps have interested in casual or I'm interested in long term. I'm wondering, will I go this is all my wife's just so sorry. But it it will I will I take that because if I said long term and I didn't like the person, then I'm securing myself. If I say it's casual, then I'm not jumping in with both feet.
Gary Johannes:I'm just testing the water. And then it's nice. I can sort of decide to go long term, but then people are not thinking I'm committed. But, actually, I'm trying to not over commit. And then if I don't say the right things, if I don't say too much, I can't put my foot in it.
Gary Johannes:So I you know, so it's not laziness. It's like, I don't know what to say. I don't know how to say it.
Eamer Draper:Yeah.
Gary Johannes:Yeah. I don't know what is enough. And, of course, that will never be enough. And then I can't be too much because then they think I'm just arrogant and cocky and things like that. So there's a complete issue for me Mhmm.
Gary Johannes:Thinking that if I had to do that of what's what's the rules of the guy?
Eamer Draper:And then I and
Gary Johannes:that's the problem.
Eamer Draper:Yeah. And I think this goes back to kinda what I was saying. I was like, we get caught up in the noise of it. And, actually, it's not about the rules of the game. It's about what do you want?
Eamer Draper:Do you want a long term relationship? Do you want, like, a new life partner? And what do you want out of that relationship? And who are you? That's all your profile should be saying.
Eamer Draper:It and instead, we get into this like, oh, well, I will probably attract more people if I do this or if I, you know, if I'm into Sunday roast and long walks, everyone will will like that. And it's like, well, if that's not you, there's no point. And I kind of to your point about this kind of gym selfies or bikini pictures will get more, you know, traction. But if if actually what you want is somebody just to sit on the sofa in pajamas with it.
Gary Johannes:Comment section.
Eamer Draper:Yeah.
Gary Johannes:Yeah. The other thing was is, like, when I was 18, I I never wanted a serious relationship. I met somebody when I was 18 who ended up being a serious relationship, but that wasn't what we all went out for.
Eamer Draper:Yeah. Yeah.
Gary Johannes:And it it just became because that's how relationships start. Now it'll be, oh, now I'm gonna find a relationship.
Benn Baker-Pollard:I'm a big believer in that. I say to people, you know, just go out and enjoy your life.
Gary Johannes:Yeah.
Benn Baker-Pollard:Meet someone that you want to meet them. Why? Because you've been genuine and true to who you are. You're not trying to be somebody else. I was just saying, my you know, I I'm at my other half with absolutely no intention whatsoever of looking for a relationship.
Benn Baker-Pollard:But we clicked, And I think a big part of that is is because I was just being me.
Eamer Draper:Yeah. And I think we have to be ourselves. Like, any pretense, you can hold it up. Like, if this relationship goes someplace, at some point, you'll go for a weekend away, and somebody will get food poisoning. And then and he, like, I was pretending to be this cool, slick person.
Eamer Draper:That's gone. And that's the person that you want beside you. Right? It's the person that's like, oh, that's alright. It happens.
Benn Baker-Pollard:The wine in the bar, and now you're head's in the toilet the following morning.
Eamer Draper:Yeah. Exactly. But, yeah, again, to that point of, like, you know, it just kinda happens. Like, when you meet somebody and you just keep saying yes, that's when it happens. Right?
Eamer Draper:So maybe it's like reshaping dating in your mindset that it's not like, yes. You're kinda clear about ideally what I want, but it's not like this next date is gonna be the love of my life. And I build up all these expectations around. It's just I'm meeting somebody with curiosity. I'm just gonna meet as many people with curiosity as I can, and that will all lead to growth for me.
Eamer Draper:Because with each person you meet, you learn something about yourself. You learn something about the world, and that's a good way to spend time. But also, it will just open up the world and possibilities and who knows instead of just being, like, in my phone looking for perfect.
Gary Johannes:The the other thing you mentioned was stigma, and I think that's a real big challenge for guys, particularly my age, where if I was to go on something like one of these dating apps, I wouldn't tell anyone because they might judge me. And it's like and then all I've heard is the publicity side of, you know, people only gone dating up for sex, and the average date lasts forty five minutes. And if you don't guarantee that you're gonna sleep with that person within forty five minutes, they they're moving on. They're sort of saying goodbye and moving on. That's a
Benn Baker-Pollard:bit quick for me, Gary. Forty five minutes.
Gary Johannes:A a dating coach who was talking about it, and I'm talking about fifteen years ago. And I saw it. It's like, you know, it was telling up or propagating this, but dating apps are for going out and having casual sex. And if you couldn't get laid in forty five minutes, you'd you'd dump them and move on to your next one, and you'd have two or three lined up in the same evening.
Benn Baker-Pollard:My coffee had take forty five minutes when I was getting to know someone alone
Gary Johannes:and That's exactly the same. So the but the stigma for me is like, wow. Does that mean I'm one of those, or does it mean this, or does it mean that? Or, you know so how do you deal with how do you tell someone who's genuinely looking for genuine dating
Benn Baker-Pollard:Mhmm.
Gary Johannes:To get past the stigma of what they've heard, which is not true? It's the ballroom bowls what you hear all the time. Yeah. It's not necessarily true. How do you get people past that stigma?
Eamer Draper:I try to just kind of open up their mindset a bit of, like, you know, here's other stories from different clients or from my own personal experience of, you know I mean, I met my husband on Tinder. It's one of the worst ones. Like, it is heavily branded as it's just for casual sex, and that is absolutely not either of our kind of approach at that time. And it's like, you know, just opening up people to see different stories and also see that the media tend to sensationalize things, you know, because they can, and that's what sells. And we, as consumers, kinda buy into that.
Eamer Draper:Right? But in terms of stigma, I think I think it's I'd love your perspective as well because I think for men, it is a real challenge. Like, time and time again, I see in person singles events, not enough men turning up. And when I work with men, one of the first thing I say is, like, go to events because you, you know, you know how to hold a conversation. So you're already probably ahead of quite a few of the people in the room.
Eamer Draper:And to see, just, like, be reminded that it's nice to be around different people and have conversations instead of it feeling like this constant app kind of controlling your life kinda thing. Like, it's just like, like, get out and be curious and and just learn. But I'd love to know, like, what you suggest as a way to, like, get over that stigma.
Gary Johannes:Yeah. You're the one on this process at the moment more than anyone. What would you how do you come across it?
Peter Ely:Well, to be fair, EMA did basically say to me, go out and sort of speak to people. And, you know, it's like, you know, what are you doing to talk to people? And I was I literally sat there and went, well, I'm waiting for someone to break into my house, a female burglar, and say, would you like a cuddle? Right? Which just doesn't happen.
Peter Ely:So I did. I started going out, and I started going to events. Some of them are better than others. Some of them feel really forced. You know, the the speed dating ones can feel quite difficult as you sit around a table forced to speak to people.
Peter Ely:So it it's it's strange. I think it's finding the right event for you. Mhmm. So there's a few that were a little bit nicer, a little bit more relaxed, and they were kinda cool. But, yeah, I think I guess that's kind of my my view is you have to go out.
Peter Ely:You have to meet people. Because everyone that you meet, there are just lovely people out there. There.
Eamer Draper:Yeah.
Peter Ely:And and as you say, man, you know, not necessarily people that I will want to spend my life with, but people that I might spend an evening with and have a bit of a laugh with and have a coffee with.
Benn Baker-Pollard:Mhmm.
Peter Ely:And it's those people that you never know what ends up happening. Right? Because you start by having a cup of coffee, and you might just get to know them as you say, Ben. You know? So it's it is that thing of taking away the expectation that this meeting must be the the be all and end all.
Eamer Draper:Yeah. Yeah. And
Benn Baker-Pollard:I also the positive of the of the dating apps because we had a a guy who we used to work with, and he separated. And us being the boys in the team, we created a him a profile on Plenty of Fish. Now, I mean, it did have a reputation, Plenty of Fish, has been the one to go shagging with. I don't know if that still stands. But, actually, I I've gotta say it was probably maybe the fourth person he met Yeah.
Benn Baker-Pollard:And the connection formed. And when I left and he'd been seen there for six months, and they were getting on like a house on fire. Yeah. Both had dogs, walked dogs, had a great connection. So I have seen it work in its positive side as well.
Benn Baker-Pollard:I I guess it's
Gary Johannes:Absolutely. So between us, we know four or five, all ladies actually, who have found their long term partners and now married all of them to the person they met on a dating app. And I
Eamer Draper:I think
Gary Johannes:copy process and, you know, met in person and that. So I I've got evidence on both sides.
Eamer Draper:Yeah. I think it's it's up to, like, 50 or 60% of relationships are now starting from online. Quite an interesting infographic that's been sped around of, like, over the last fifty years, how it's flipped from work to online. And then that's the other thing. Like, a lot of the spaces that who traditionally have met people aren't really there anymore.
Eamer Draper:Like, so like meeting somebody in work possibly still happens, but it's very, it's not as easy as it was. I think there's a lot more kind of taboo around it. And, and we're working from home as well. And I get a sense for guys that there's a hesitancy with that chatting up in real life. And you can say it's because I'm worried that, you know, I'll cross a line or post hashtag me too.
Eamer Draper:I'm not sure what's appropriate or not. But I I feel like it's it's more ingrained than that of going up to approach somebody in person is terrifying, and the risk of rejection is, you know, there. And and our brains have then found excuses to go, oh, well, I won't do it because, you know, that rejection is not gonna feel nice. And I feel like there's a lot of stuff that's happened and that's out there, you know, around equality and around me too that gives us these kind of excuses to not approach.
Gary Johannes:I don't know about Peter and Ben, but I can go right back to my teenage years because I've been married. It's insane. But pre that, asking a girl out was the scariest thing in the world. I don't know. I and so asking someone out, approaching someone for the first time, even if you know them, but stepping over that line, they're going, do I have a date or whatever that might have been?
Gary Johannes:Probably was the hardest thing you ever did in your life, harder than jumping out of an airplane or anything else like that. Asking a girl or or or somebody if they wanted a date was horrible. Mhmm. You know? But that's
Eamer Draper:make it easy.
Gary Johannes:No. Could you?
Benn Baker-Pollard:It's gotta be some challenge there, isn't it?
Eamer Draper:It's all
Benn Baker-Pollard:over. It's no there's no point for that game. It's done. That's sometimes the best bit's to chase. That's where the excitement comes in.
Benn Baker-Pollard:The buzz comes from. You know? That message that you get the next day or in that attempt to try and arrange a meet where, yeah, it kind of moves that little bit step closer and the little sort of butterflies and excitement come along.
Gary Johannes:That's the problem you've been asking somebody whether they wanted to have a date or whatever. And you see contact.
Benn Baker-Pollard:I come from a different perspective. I mean, well, okay. So I can give you my the perspective of when I was going out with girls and
Gary Johannes:Oh, even with boys. Yeah. But I'm going to step forward and going
Benn Baker-Pollard:different different different concept from my world. You're gonna be scratching your head. So from my perspective, like, going out when I was dating girls in my younger years, that is I remember one of them, you know, the very first girls I dated was that whole kind of little bit of flirting at work, a little bit of a connection. Do you know what it started over? Bizarrely or not, Casualty.
Eamer Draper:Romantic.
Benn Baker-Pollard:Whether you're watching whether you're watching Casualty or something. It was a conversation where I said I want casualties on tonight or something like that. And I was like, oh, I like Casualty. And then it like, the conversation kind of spiraled, and it was that little bit of connection and flirting on both sides that progressed that conversation. And it was stupidity.
Benn Baker-Pollard:You know? Like, the jokes around casualty became, like, the the main focus of our conversation for a few days. And it's like, yeah. There's something here. I'm kind of getting that feeling that there's a bit of groundwork done and there's somewhere to go with this.
Benn Baker-Pollard:But I quite enjoyed that. I quite enjoyed the excitement of that. But, you know, I'm talking when I was 17, 18, that age and that. And so I guess it probably feels a little bit different when you're that young. You you don't have as as much sort of self consciousness, I'd say.
Benn Baker-Pollard:You've got a bit more brasse approach to life when you're younger and you're in your teens. The gay side of it, I so in terms of asking someone for a date or or connecting, it was very different. There's a very different vibe if you go out to a gay scene, and it's something I I it makes me chuckle. Because if I wanna connect with someone in the gay bar, all I've got to do is look at
Gary Johannes:them Yeah.
Benn Baker-Pollard:Look away, and look back. And then there's literally a few second delay between that, and it's just a little bit of a head tilt and a smile. And that will initiate the conversation for you.
Gary Johannes:Yeah.
Benn Baker-Pollard:And that way then you can have that connection and conversation from that point onwards. And it's not so then go ahead.
Gary Johannes:I was
Eamer Draper:gonna say, I'd say that's a tactic that a lot of women use.
Gary Johannes:Yeah. And it's good. Do you know I was thinking exactly the same? They almost have a coded system where men are too stupid to realize it.
Benn Baker-Pollard:Yeah. Probably. But you can see.
Gary Johannes:You know? Don't see it.
Benn Baker-Pollard:You just literally walk past and you catch eyes with someone, and then you'd look away, and then you'd sort of smile to yourself, and you'd turn back. And if you were both looking back and you both just nodded, it was a conversation starter, and it was game on to find out more, to see where it goes. Now that then becomes your challenge to differentiate between is that can we quickly nip out rounds of toilets or outside, whatever, and have a bit quick session, or is it actually I wanna get to know more of you? But you'd find that out within a few minutes of a conversation with the person. Mhmm.
Gary Johannes:I think I think that lots of women do that and men don't see that action as the men miss it. And they think, oh, they they're looking at me. They're judging me. I'm not good enough.
Eamer Draper:I do wonder if that's, like, one of the issues in the kinda hetero space is that we're too in our own assumptions and our own heads rather than actually taking chances. Because I imagine, you know, in that in that situation when if if you chatted and you're like, oh god. This person is absolutely not for me. It's like, oh, well, on ago. That was that.
Eamer Draper:Whereas I think men and women get a bit more into like, oh, why didn't they? Was it because of what I'm wearing? Was it because of my size? Was it because of
Gary Johannes:It's interesting. From the outside looking in, running bars and clubs and that, you actually often saw that interaction happen or not happen. And you're sort of stood back watching this and going, don't just miss that or that didn't happen. But thinking back now, actually, you Peter, you would've seen the same where it's like, wow. They've just walked past an opportunity and they didn't even notice that person waving like this Yeah.
Gary Johannes:In in many ways, and they're just oblivious to it because they just didn't see it. Then going on, I didn't get anybody like me. He's like, okay. You just missed it. I don't know if you saw that, Peter.
Peter Ely:No. I yeah. There's there's a joke. A guy called Junior Simpson tells a joke about that, and he says, basically, a woman could be naked walking down the street with a big sign saying Junior Simpson, I wanna make love to you. He said, and I would see that and go, that Junior Simpson's one lucky guy.
Peter Ely:And that was me for a long time. Right? That I was just completely oblivious to him. But, yeah, you see it when you're on the door as well. Incredible.
Peter Ely:We are very close to time. Yeah. So I'm gonna ask Ima, what is one best bit of advice that you can give to people out there to say how to to help them to help them with their dating lives? People who are sat at home either on apps or sat going out and and not really meeting people, what's your one best bit of advice for people?
Eamer Draper:I was gonna say be a bit more Ben because I love that approach. I'm like, I'm just gonna see what happens.
Peter Ely:But you more, Ben. Fantastic bit
Gary Johannes:of advice.
Eamer Draper:To distill that down.
Gary Johannes:There's no way I'm gonna let my team hear that. I don't have to think about one version of Ben. But I
Eamer Draper:think to distill that down, it's like, just take a chance. Just take a chance on love. Take a chance on yourself. And, like, stop. Like, I think we keep on stopping ourselves because we run ahead to, like, what's the worst that can happen.
Eamer Draper:And it's not as bad as your brain is gonna make it. Your brain is always gonna make it worse than it is. So just take a chance. You learn something each time. You'll go, oh, I would've said something differently.
Eamer Draper:And that's good. That was a good use of ten minutes of your time, and then get on with your life. You know? So, yeah, if you're sitting at home at apps, send the messages, match up more people. Do not spend forever in them.
Eamer Draper:Go out and meet people. And definitely, I mean, men turning up to I know singles events can feel cringey, but my god, there's so many of them that it is three to one women to men because women are absolutely fed up of apps. So it's definitely gonna increase your odds, so just do it.
Gary Johannes:I really didn't know that it really happened. I thought there was something off telly, you know, where people go in a single bar. I didn't know there were never looked, so I never knew there was
Eamer Draper:Yeah. There's a massive resurgence. Massive, massive resurgence at the moment.
Gary Johannes:I think it's brilliant
Benn Baker-Pollard:because we need that connection as people. Like you said in the beginning, we should connect as important part
Peter Ely:of Mhmm.
Benn Baker-Pollard:Physiology and who we are. Yes. And I think it's been massively lost with technology and apps.
Eamer Draper:Yeah. And, actually, with all my clients, I set a challenge. I call it the one zero one challenge. So it's speak to a hundred people of the sex that you're interested in. Strangers.
Eamer Draper:Like, it doesn't matter if they're gay or straight, married or single, your type, not your type. It doesn't matter. It's just the act of opening up conversations and getting used to that uncomfortable feeling of like, oh, what do I say in that? How do I you know, just get so you can kinda get over it. And then the one is to go on a bloody date.
Eamer Draper:Just make it happen. It doesn't have to be this big thing that you, like, spend months and months trying to plot to get to. Just ask me for a coffee.
Gary Johannes:It's a date, not a relationship. Yeah. That's a good looking problem.
Peter Ely:And it's really lovely you said something there that we when we're doing these dating things, we can sometimes get to the end of the date before we've even started the date, right, or ask someone out. And that's something that we talk to our clients about all the time, negatively forecasting our future. Yeah. And and it does hold us back. So it's a that's a really good point.
Peter Ely:Thank you. So, Ima, please tell us a little bit about what you do, what kindling dating is, how people can find you. Tell us all about you, please.
Eamer Draper:Oh, gosh. Trying to keep it short and sweet. So, yeah, Kindling Dating Coaching, I founded about three years ago. Very much so from personal experience of being single for a long time. I was focused on my career, and I was alright on my own.
Eamer Draper:I didn't need anybody. And then I was like, oh, actually, maybe I need to take this seriously. And it was actually really when I met Sam, my husband. You know, I knew from women, we would all get together and have a glass of wine and bitch about how bad everything was. But then I could see from his side, he's like, I'm sending out messages every evening, and I get nothing back.
Eamer Draper:Like, it's kinda soul destroying. And that started my brain kinda going, what's going wrong? Why are we so stuck and disconnected? And what can I do to help? And lots and lots of research later, I kinda got to the conclusion that it's not finding people that's the problem.
Eamer Draper:It's how we're allowing ourselves to be open and to show ourselves up authentically and to let somebody in. And that's all completely within our control. So that's really the kind of idea behind kindling dating coaching is to get people feeling back in control of their love lives because we are in control of how we show up, how we're thinking about things, whether that's like future catastrophizing or just staying in the present moment. And I couple that kind of mindset work with practical tips and tricks of, like, don't put crappy selfies on your foot on your on your profile. Come on.
Eamer Draper:We can do better. You know, people will even just screenshot me like, oh, they said this. What does it mean? And I'll be like, why didn't you respond this? And it's just giving that kind of bit of neutral sounding board more confidence to be yourself because, like, we touched on, you know, you have to be yourself.
Eamer Draper:Everyone else's taking you have to be yourself and know that the right person for you is gonna love you for that. So, yeah, it's it's kind of I guess you're kind of wing woman or wing man because I do have other coaches that work with me as well. Like I say, I try to bring different perspectives into it, and we work either one to one coaching, or group program coaching. I'm also starting to do events, to try and get people meeting in the flesh as well. So, yeah, lots of things.
Eamer Draper:Actually, a quick tool that people could use is I have a a dating persona quiz where it's just a two minute questionnaire, and it gives you an idea of the persona that you've gotten stuck in. And then there's a five day free audio series to help you start moving out of that and just challenging that mindset. So that can be, you know, from the heart shielder where you're just so afraid of hurt that you're not letting anybody in, or it could be kind of stuck on your ex or the disillusioned that you're just kind of fed up with the whole scene, and all you can see is the negative. And it's the the audio series is to help people start getting out of that. So you can just jump on my website, kindlingdating.com, to access that quiz, and it will send you your persona straight away.
Eamer Draper:It's quite helpful.
Peter Ely:Awesome. And your email address, are you on LinkedIn? Are you on Instagram?
Eamer Draper:Eimer. I'm Instagram kindling underscore dating. You can email me, Eimer, if you can work out how to spell it, @kindlingdating.com. Might wanna put that in the notes.
Peter Ely:No problem. We'll we'll get the correct spelling for your name so that everyone fantastic. Thank you so much for your time. It's been a genuine pleasure chatting with you and learning more about how we we can do better to kind of connect with each other. And I'm certainly taking a few tips away, so thank you.
Eamer Draper:Yes, good be brave.
Peter Ely:Yeah, yeah, I guess so. Just be brave, rest true. Be more Ben.
Gary Johannes:Be more Ben. I swear.
Benn Baker-Pollard:I gotta eat that and I'm gonna live this down even.
Eamer Draper:He's dying on that forever.
Peter Ely:I'm gonna have to go and get an ambulance uniform to be more Ben. Right? Excellent. Thank you very much. Thank you, Gary.
Peter Ely:Thank you, Ben. Would you like to say goodbye?
Benn Baker-Pollard:Go ahead, Gary.
Gary Johannes:Yeah. Okay. So I I found that really fascinating, and I think it's really important in the men's space. We work in to show that their their what their challenge is isn't that big to come over it. So thank you for that, and that has been really insightful.
Gary Johannes:Thank you. Yeah.
Benn Baker-Pollard:Likewise. Thanks, team. I I can't believe actually how quick the time has gone. I can't believe we're already at five past two. It seems like we literally started this two minutes ago, but great to hear that there's someone there who might for anyone who might need the support, and it's definitely been a a good and engaging conversation.
Benn Baker-Pollard:And I'm definitely taking away Be More Ben no matter what anyone says. So
Peter Ely:thank you very much, and goodbye from the inspired mental team. We hope you've enjoyed listening to us and we will catch you again soon.
